I am having some trouble reading the serial number but if it's 11,403 this Patek wrist would date to 1860s. I vote no to it being a Patek. It is a super looking movement which I doubt belongs in this case. It appears to be an open face mv't and likely got its case scrapped early on and was recased(gotta be honest here) a bit haphazardly.Just my opinion.-Cort
Posts: 536 | Location: El Cerrito, California U.S.A. | Registered: October 04, 2004
In my non-expert opinion I also lean against Patek. It is high grade with some Patek like features but not a Patek or at least not clearly a Patek. As far as the numbers I think I make them out to be 41,403 which if it were a Patek number would make this the worlds oldest wristwatch made about 1873 so I don't think so. But still need an expert,for all I know its a Tiffany number. Also it would be nice to see sharper photos and to look under the dial for other markings. What about a Vacheron Constantin ?
Posts: 110 | Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana U.S.of A. | Registered: April 29, 2006
ANTHONY , i appreciate your input , let me ask this . were watches made for tiffany numbered in pateks's system or were jobber watches numbered by tiffany ?
cort, this is a wrist not pocket watch , i doubt its case would have been scrapped ...i recently purchased the watch i haveent recived it yet
Hey Cort If this does not have a seconds bit then this might not be recase or do you see something else besides what I see. I am learning here so bare with me. Also is that a tiffany serial number or Patek, good question for me for me since I honestly do not know, better yet does Tiffany and other large private companies use there own serial numbers when they have there contract watch companies make watches for them or do they let the watch companies continue on with there own serial numbers? Let me know eyes have some learning to do!!!
I, too, believe that this is a recase from an original open-face pendant watch. The movement looks, to me, to be circa 1900 (maybe earlier) whereas the case style is from much later.
Posts: 1455 | Location: Los Angeles, California USA | Registered: January 14, 2003
thanks jerry , i somewhat agree with your scenario, id really like to know if the movement is a patek , the watch looks fantastic in the case , it has bombe style lugs
Hey Pete I can answer why looking at the movement they assumed it was an open face movement. It was the crown position in relation to the forth wheel which usually has a pivot through that a second hand is attatched. This is why I mentioned if it did not have a seconds bit on the dial would they still think it was a recase. But Jerry stated my answer that this case is newer than the movement. Thanks I am learning more about these wrists. I still would like to hear more input whether others think it is a Patek or not. WHat do you think Jerry?
Robert is correct - it is the position of the fourth wheel relative to the stem that establishes this movement as an open-face movement, regardless of how it is dialed or cased. I have seen examples from a number of companies where a movement was only made in one configuration (sometimes hunting, sometimes open-face) and a dial without a seconds-bit was used to convert it to the alternate use. Do I think this is a Patek? - I do not have enough experience with Pateks to judge that. It is certainly high-grade and the barrel bridge reminds me of a Patek, but that is not enough information on which to base a conjecture. Pete - have you had a look under the dial for any identifying marks?
Posts: 1455 | Location: Los Angeles, California USA | Registered: January 14, 2003
Hello Peter Just what I meant,I have no idea. I myself strongly believe it would have to be in Pateks's numbering system if it is Patek but I am not expert enough to say this is fact when it comes to the old and close business relationship between Tiffany and Patek.
I have photos of Patek's with bridges very close to this watch as well,reversed but close, I think the snail is good,I think I see a bean shaped hairspring stud cap which I think might be another check in the Patek column and of course the wolf teeth are great. One question I have is would Patek use straight or curves fingers on a smaller movement or is its age a factor in this.
Posts: 110 | Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana U.S.of A. | Registered: April 29, 2006
Here are some additional thoughts in no particular order: Again, this is only what I think I know. -Patek was adamant about signing their work. Some early stuff wasn't signed with their name on the mv't but ser no. would match the one on the case which was signed. All the Tiffany Patek's I've seen pics of were signed by Patek. I really doubt anything made by Patek would have ever been marked with the ser. no. of another co. -If the hands are original(and they do look to be) it would make me believe this was a lady's pocket watch originally. -The dial is possibly of the snap-on variety which would simplify conversion to a wristwatch.If the dial has feet then this was a hunter cased watch with no seconds hand. Then again, the detent stem also belies an open face watch -The pocket watch style crown may be original too. These were often used on very early wristwatches too but not on the current case style. Any other thoughts? -Cort
Posts: 536 | Location: El Cerrito, California U.S.A. | Registered: October 04, 2004
I can see the numbers 11,403 and what I think is TIFFANY Co. on the movement. Is that right? The Tiffany part? Hard to see, even when I cropped and enlarged it. I see you guys were talking Tiffany so does it say that? Thanks,
Really Bad picture but look.... When I Super Sized it looks like it's 11,403. I thought it was a 4 also until I made it much bigger than the picture below.
Sheila
Posts: 3094 | Location: La Plata, Maryland U.S.A. | Registered: May 22, 2004
yes sheila , but tiffany contracted many makers for thier watches . we are trying to determine if this is a patek because patek has a long history especially in the early years, many of thier early items were made by that firm . once i get this watch in t he mail i will look under the dial , either way its a great looking watch with a high grade movement with a nice looking case , bombe lugs ( not very common )
Pete, Yep, I had just read about some of the Tiffany watches, and I wanted to know if this was one for sure, I had no idea who made watches for them, or how many companies had made them for Tiffany until recently. Now I can add that one to the list. Thanks for letting me know. I'm not a Tiffany follower, but would like to know just how many Companies did watches for them. I have read that they only used "high end" movements, however, I'm not even sure of that. I'm anxious to see what this one turns out to be. Sorry, I should have explained myself better. What are bombe style lugs? I see them, but what does bombe mean?
Anthony, Great picture! Thank you.
Sheila
Posts: 3094 | Location: La Plata, Maryland U.S.A. | Registered: May 22, 2004
im unsure how many companies made them for tiffany ( quite a few ) thier earlier years were closely tied to patek, tiffany also did make high end watches themselves as well .. bomb'e lugs curve in toward the case , rolex made a case like this thats very collectable , it is pictured in the " cooksey book of watches "
