• FIVE GENUINE ILLINOIS 161 AND 163 VARIANT DIALS INCLUDING "23J" DIALS IN DETAIL •

October 15, 2006, 07:45

Robert F. Shafer

In Shugart's price guide, do the prices listed for the Illinois 161 and 163 include the marked 60 hour dial or do you have to add to those prices if the watch has that dial? I don't know if that dial was standard on those watches. Trying to come up with a fair price for this type watch in top condition. Thanks

October 15, 2006, 09:30

Robert V. Jones

Robert the dial definately adds to the value. Value always depends on which dial case or movement you have and also the condition of it. Post some pictures most of those dials add great value to your watch. Rob

October 15, 2006, 09:57

Cooksey Shugart

Robert, Not all varitions are listed. Some "things" affect the value more than others. Also each buyer- collector is different and some variations make a watch more collectable or valuable. It depends (supply and demand ?).
Cooksey

October 15, 2006, 12:00

Lindell V. Riddle

Robert,

I agree with Rob Jones and Cooksey Shugart, the dial is always a big part of watch value. Many collectors tend to assume one of four specially marked variant dials will be found on nearly any 163 but a variant dial is not always expected on the 161 movements as they were not quite as likely to have come with one originally.

We have recently reached the point where the dial alone can easily make a $3,000.00 or even greater difference in value of an individual watch. In addition to the marked only as "Illinois" dial there is one marked variant that was made for the 21-Jewel 161 movements and the 23-Jewel 163 movements have four variant possibilities. We will now post each of them right here. The five dials shown immediately below are from my personal collection.

The 161 marked "21-Jewel 60-Hour" dial...

October 15, 2006, 12:00

Lindell V. Riddle

The 163 marked "23-Jewel 60-Hour" dial...

October 15, 2006, 12:00

Lindell V. Riddle

163 Montgomery "23-Jewel 60-Hour" dial...

October 15, 2006, 12:00

Lindell V. Riddle

The "23J" marked "60-Hour 6 Positions" dial...

October 15, 2006, 12:00

Lindell V. Riddle

"23J" Montgomery "60-Hour 6 Positions" dial...

October 15, 2006, 12:00

Lindell V. Riddle

One final point about these original variant dials...

As mentioned above, we have reached the point where the dial can make a $3,000.00 difference in value of an individual watch. That means we must use great caution because there are dials floating around that have had variant markings added to them and at first-glance they may appear to be original. Some of the more blatant fakes are shown below in this topic.

Remember to always examine the dial very carefully before making your buying decision.

October 15, 2006, 13:49

Robert F. Shafer

Thanks to all who responded.

You have been very helpful. Lin, thanks for the pictures and phone call.

Bob

October 28, 2009, 16:51

Lindell V. Riddle

Now we will discuss dials that have had markings added to them...

It is important to understand a couple points, for example we know there were no "arrows-in" variant Bunn Special dials. The "arrows-in" design is considerably earlier than the beginnings in 1928 of "arrows-out" Bunn Special variant dials which are the basic subject of this topic.

Secondly, I can tell you that both the "Bunn Special" and "23-Jewel, 60 Hour" markings were added to the eBay auction example shown below in order to deceive an unsuspecting or uninformed buyer. The dial you see in the next three images fooled quite a number of those who thought they knew what they were looking at. What we are about to share below will explain why I am always skeptical of any dial with "fuzzy-looking" markings such as these next examples have. Be sure to study the text and images which follow very carefully and please do share your thoughts.

Intense magnification shows some differences...

October 28, 2009, 16:51

Lindell V. Riddle

Next, we compare a suspect dial to a known to be correct factory original. Remember, with genuine porcelain-enamel dials there is a glaze over the numerals and other markings. On these dials with added markings the additions are a form of paint, added on top of the porcelain which is very important to recognize. As you will see in the image below, the differences become far more obvious when comparing these two dials very closely.

Compare suspect on top with "real deal" below...

October 28, 2009, 16:51

Lindell V. Riddle

In this image below you can see absolute proof of fakery. Not only do we find the "Bunn Special" part of the signature is not under the glaze, just painted on the surface and because it is painted-on it can actually be flaked away. (Note below, In order to demonstrate this more clearly I flaked off some of the paint forming the top of the "S" in "Special" with use of a sharp blade!)

The seller of this dial, a well-known, self-styled "Illinois Expert" (and former IHC Member, you can probably figure out who it was) brought this dial to my home thinking he could fool me as he had previously fooled others with his tricky dials. Next day at a watch collector's event I flaked off part of his additions, as you see in the image below, in front of assembled on-lookers and was his face red!

I have formed the belief this deceptively addded paint work was performed using a silk-screening process and rubber-based paint (such as used on decorated t-shirts) because the paint is very durable, even resistant to some solvents.

This undeniable evidence being shared here in public for the first time makes it clear we should very carefully inspect every "variant dial" with the greatest care and a fair amount of skepticism. With some of the correct, original variant dials selling for thousands of dollars, as buyers we have every reason to use extreme caution before buying.

"Bunn Special" was just painted on the surface...

October 28, 2009, 16:51

Lindell V. Riddle

Below on the left, another earlier dial with added markings that was recently in an eBay auction.

Upon close examination, the "inward-pointing arrows" are the first indicators that this one has been faked. In this instance both "Bunn Special" and "23-Jewel Sixty Hour" were added in attempt to fool an unsuspecting buyer. Compare this altered dial on left below to the genuine article on the right and in the second image at the beginning of this topic. Altered dials have little if any collector interest (other than for educational warnings such as this) and are worth only a tiny fraction of the genuine article.

On the left, faked markings, genuine markings on right...

October 28, 2009, 16:51

Lindell V. Riddle

Another image of the altered dial shown on the left immediately above this post. Compare the image below to those of the first altered dial we shared in three views above. Once again the "fuzzy-looking" markings are clearly above the porcelain. Like the previous example added markings can be flaked or scraped off with a sharp blade.

Another view of the second dial with added markings...

October 28, 2009, 17:51

Steve Middlesworth

Lindell,

Couldn't the 21 jewel marked variant dial also have been available for the 21 jewell 60 HOUR TYPE IIIB? Also was the 21 jewel variant dial available in the Montgomery style?

Steve

October 28, 2009, 20:23

Lindell V. Riddle

I would agree with you Steve, the 21 and 23-Jewel Type III B movements could be entirely proper with one of the first three variant dials shown in this topic. At the time we began this topic three years ago the "Type III B" had not been recognized let alone named. You and I did that about this time last year right here...

BUNN SPECIAL 23 JEWEL MOTOR BARREL 60 TYPE I, II AND III BOTH "A" AND "B" VARIANTS!

Quote from October 25, 2008 in that topic...

"Going forward we should then assign "Type III A" and "Type III B" designations to them for identification purposes. So that a Type III marked with "Illinois Watch Co." signature is hereafter designated as a "Type III A" and those with "Illinois Watch" signature become known as the "Type III B" variant..."

So far as we know the 21-Jewel variant dial came only in the first design shown in this topic.

Like you, I find these dials and movement markings fascinating,

Lindell

October 29, 2009, 07:37

Chris Abell

The machine to do this fakery only costs a couple of thousand now and would quickly pay for itself so it is time to look closely at dials & plates, close examination will show poor alignment, bad fonts etc, for now but as time passes and machines get better...