Could any one tell me the year that the Illinois Bunn Spec Mdl 1 case first appeared....And then when the bow changed...

Thanks
John Pavlik

john,

from a posting made in 2001....

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April 1925 THE RAILWAY CLERK
A center fold two page ad "announcing the Complete Bunn Special" It shows two variations of the "first model" case, a 14K filled Green or White gold at $67.50 "NOW READY FOR DELIVERY" and A 10K filled "furnished oly in regular gold" (yellow) priced at 60.00 "READY FOR DELIVERY IN MAY"
This ad also introduces the aluminum cigarette case with a cardboard liner and a bag holding the watch.

The May 1925 "LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS JOURNAL" on the inside back cover announces "THE COMPLETE BUNN SPECIAL" It describes the 21 jewel fitted in Wadsworth 10K filled regular gold cases selling at 60.00.

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I will try to find my copy of the ad and scan it...(it may take a while....) i did not have a scanner in 2001....

my recollection of the ad ... there were the two designs of the bow then... one with the 'hump' in it.......

Terry,

Great answer to my question...No need to find the ads, unless you "have' to... So the bow style must have been "optional" ???

John

John, These first model cases go like this: in yellow 10kt gold filled the bows are arched with out the hump,.... always. There are 2 bezel patterns for the yellow 1st models, the early style bezel pattern in yellow which is the circular moon shape design shown in Terry's ad and then around serial # 7.1 million approximately the design changed to the beaded balls pattern. These yellow cases were equivalent to a 20 year case. The white and green cases were 14kt gold filled, equivalent to a 25 year case and were thus more expensive. They always had one design. The chain link pattern design with the humped bow.......always. One additional trivia on all these first model cases is that around 7,205,000 the pendant area under the crown changed from a square cut out to a more smooth curved cutout for the crown to rest in. Of further note, early belief was that first model cases only came on the 21 jewel bunn specials between 1925 and 1928 but in the last year or so we have seen proof of factory boxes for 23 jewel bunn specials listed with first model cases. So that poo poos the Illinois book's statement that the 23j Bunn sp sixty hour watch was sold movement only from 1925 until 1929. We now know better. Hope this helps. Happy "first model" Hunting! .........

Michael,

Thanks for the interesting "details", makes "Hunting" a lot easier with your insite and your "Always" guide...

Would you think Mdl 1 case #6994934, would have a 23 jewel 60 hour..#5068800, as original ????

John

John, IN answer to your question, NO.....or as my great Aunt Dode used to say......" Absolutely Not", ha!........your case is about as early as they get dating to late 1924 to early, or even mid, 1925, and your movement dates to mid 1928. I can tell you without even seeing a pic of it that it has a square cutout under the bow rather than the smooth seating found on the "later" ones from 1926 and after. Also, if it is yellow it will have the early circular bezel pattern rather than the "later" beaded ball pattern from late 1925/early'26 and after. In the near future, the 185 members and the watch collecting world will be able to DATE by year of production, the Wadsworth Bunn Cases , as I have recently supplied my years of info collecting on these to Lindell who will be making it into an internet publication as soon as his time permits. At that point, you will see many Illinois collectors scrambling to get "correct" time era cases serial numbers for their respective movement if they do not correlate correctly already. I expect at that time additionally, that original watchs will make a significant jump in value and have a distinct premium over cases and movements that are obviously out of parameter. For example a 5.0 million Bunn Special needs a Wadsworth case of around 7.680 to 7.780 million, give or take , right off the top of my head , as I was saying all the numbers should be made public sometime this year with Lindell's expertise. Happy Hunting to all!

Mike and Terry,
Great information on the first model cases. I hate to say this but all of my first model cases with bunn specials do not appear to be original to each other. I now will begin the task of at least trying to make the case and movements to be of the same time period. Thanks again for the help.

Michael,

Thats NOT what I wanted to hear , but such is life..Now thought, I am curious as to a few others.. How did Wadsworth number cases, by Model??

2 examples, and please be as brutalty honest as the first one..

I have a 161A # 5609346 in the "Hump" bow case with what appears to be that oval link design around the bezel.. It is Wasdwoth # 7118027..

2nd example is a Sangamo Spec 23 jewel # 4758722,in a Wadsworth 193 case with #6994934.. This is the 17 size Sangamo....

I guess I am not following how they did the numbering or if there is "system" to their numbering...

Thanks for you comments..

John, the Wadsworth cases are easy to date as they run in chronological order , however it takes years to record them to where they start to jive and make sense, so just to give you a clue the early model 10 sangamo specials start around 4.1 million (in 1917) and run up to about 6.8 million ( in 1922)...the Bunn Special Wadsworth cases start at 6.9 million (in 1924) and run up to 8.6 million (around 1931-34 depending on finish date) in the middle of the great depression. There is another range of Wadsworth numbers completely different for Hamilton. Terry Hall is doing those. The model 13 Sangamo Special Wadsworth cases range from 7.0 million (1925) to 8.6 million (early 30's) as well. These are the latest numbers you will see on a Bunn or Sangamo Wadsworth case "usually", however Lindell has a late Bunn case with an H prefix, like one would see on a Hamilton from around 1937. These are the very last cases and his is the only one I have ever seen, heard of or recorded. Speaking of which, I hope the membership will be patient with him as he edits and publishes the info for all of us, as it is very time consuming and should not be rushed to insure accuracy. So if you have a question on a watch, just refer the question to me and I will date your individual watch for you . Remember this info has taken a long long time to build and I am furnishing it for free to be shared for everyones collecting benefit , so let's all please give Lindell time to do it justice as I know he will. That said, let me answer your question, Your 161A is a very late one as 161's go and dates to the mid 1930's, your case, however, is green or white by the info you say and dates to 1926 , so your case predates the movement by at least 8 years and is incorrect. Remember from an earlier post of mine, where I said that probably only 1 or 2 watchs in 10 for sale today are original. Dealers and collectors alike have been switching them from as far back as the 1950's for monetary gain, or visual enhancement. Some or probably a few could have been switched at the jewelry store they were purchased in when new if the truth be known. To heck with that original box, you're just gonna throw that away when you get home anyway, right?, Ha!.....well you get my point. Again, once this info sinks in to the collecting public, original watchs will , I think , double the price over a switched watch, and the collectors will be trying to get their watchs back to correct time correlations between movement and case in order to "appear" original, so lots of changes will take place in values in the next few years. I feel we are on the verge of some dramatic changes in collector mindset with the Hamilton and Illinois stuff, once all the info is out. Lastly, Your Sangamo is a marked 60 hour example and is generally seen with a 193 case on the ones finished towards the late 20's and early 30's as they were ordered and sold, although the serial numbers on the plates were numbered in 1926. I think you may need to check the serial number again on the CASE as using my judgement, you may have made a typo. I would think the case number is 7994934 rather than the 6994934 you posted. If it is a 7, then it is a correctly dated case for your movement. Also, as a footnote, of course all case serial numbers should match or one just has parts. Hope this helps and Happy "correct case" Hunting to all!...

Michael,

See this is why you do NOT want me transcribing case numbers.. The Sangamo Spec I refered to above has case number 8508646.. I am still looking where I got that other number...Its not like I have a drawer full of Bunn Spec Cases.. I am sure you opinions about original watches is sure to happen as 2 out of my 3 Illinois are incorrect..And the cases are in such NICE condition, the one with the 161 looks almost new...

I must also say thanks for getting "my" info, and putting together this list will prove to be a gold mine of information..

One Major point on the Illinois Bunn Specials.....

Finding an 'unreputable' example may be difficult, as Illinois for the most part did not put the case serial number on the boxes....

John, that Sangamo case number is exactly what I would expect to find on your watch, it is in line and correct. Your point of the cases being nice is also what I expect as you don't think they would change cases and put a BAD one on a 161 A do you?, ha!....that is the reason it was probably switched, the old original one was probably worn. Terry's point of the boxes not having the case serial number is EXACTLY right and important to consider. That is why we have worked so hard to build a reputable database on these so we could at least try to determine if a watch is at least CLOSE to what should be original . For instance let's say I get a common 21J Type III 60 Hour with say 5.0 serial number. The case should be lets say 7.6 million. Now lets say my case is wore out. If I can find another case that is around 7.6 million that is pristine, then I could "upgrade" my watch. I would know it has been changed but no one else would unless it has already be recorded. I am not saying one should switch , only pointing out that even if you have the box to the watch, it does not list the serial number of the case so one could theoretically still have an "original" looking watch . That is probably one of the points I think Terry is trying to show you. I might add that He has worked much harder than I on his Hamilton recordings and research as there are so many more of those to record!! We have only built these databases to determine how to tell if a watch appears to be original as it might have been switched coincidentally last week with a case that was only a few numbers away . It is when one is not even close that we can catagorically say, bad switch. Hope this helps. Happy Hunting.