I am seeking information on Illinois boxed marine chronometers that saw service in WW II.

Copy of Naval Observatory certificate for this watch.

Joel,
Check "The Pitfalls" section. This same item is discussed....it is about the 10th topic discussed.

Illinois Ship's Chronometer?

Steve

Having read the thread suggested, I repeat, I am seeking information on the WW II Illinois boxed chronometer. Let me add I am only interested in hearing from people who know something about them, not speculation and accusations from those who have no knowledge of this timepiece or how the Navy met their timekeeping requirements at the beginning of WW II.

For some reason, it seems to be a little known fact, that time on this watch is set by removing the bezel. There is a small lever at the 2 o'clock position that when extended allows the winding stem to be pulled out and set the time. I would have thought that some Illinois collector would have known and mentioned this rather than criticize someone less informed.

To bring things up-to-date, I have knowledge of two others who have similar clocks.

So far I am disapointed with the level of helpful information offered.

Joel,
After doing a search in the threads for "Ship Chronometers" I found a comment that the late Marvin Whitney was an expert on Marine Chronometers and wrote two books on the subject. Maybe you can find some copies of those which may help.
Steve

Hello Joel,

Thank you for the images of your Illinois. Unfortunatley, I have no information regarding this item. None of my references mention it.

Given market conditions, collectors tend to be rather guarded when confronted with the unusual.

With any luck, maybe someone else will have some information.

Best regards

Greg

I checked my reference materials and likewise I did not find anything on Illinois watches being used as Navy ship chonometers. Navy timepieces have a series of markings on their case backs. Could you please add a photo of the markings on the back of this timepiece? Also, the boxes typically have data plates on them. Is there one on this box and if so could you also add a photo of it? Thanks.

quote:

For some reason, it seems to be a little known fact, that time on this watch is set by removing the bezel. There is a small lever at the 2 o'clock position that when extended allows the winding stem to be pulled out and set the time. I would have thought that some Illinois collector would have known and mentioned this rather than criticize someone less informed.

Aloha Joel
My observation is not meant to criticize rather to point out that your Chronometer lever set had been altered.
We now know that this is not the case.
I am not an expert rather a collector I also own a Ball Elgin 333 Illinois. That is, A Ball Movement with an Illinois Dial mounted in gimbals with Navy Department Bureau of ships Chart no. 1A-ISSUE DATA
attesting to the fact that this Chronometer was damaged and another cannibalized based on the date of last overhaul December 1943 an issue date of February 1944 to the U S Maritime Comm. my Chronometer last saw service December 1943

Aloha Scott

Steve,

The copy of Whitney's book I have makes no mention of Illinois. Neither does Tran Dus Ly's various books mention a chronometer made by them.

To Jim Hester,

The movement is inside a brass tub. The tub does not have any markings. Please keep in mind that this clock was tested by the Naval Observatory, but was owned by the U.S. Maritme Commission. Hence, it served in merchant ships and not haze grey ships.

There are no plates or marks on either the box or the carrying case.

As you have gathered, I have not doscovered how to answer an individual post. Appologies.

To Scott,

I misunderstood your post on the other thread, but I did recognize your name. [Edited for content]

Scott, I appreciate your original email, and it was from you that I learned about the time set lever, and your owning one of these.

To Greg Crockett,

The listing has been revised to incorporate information that was sent me privately, and that which I garnered on this site.

eBay listing

My website has a site dedicated search engine on the home page. Enter a search term and it will link to what is related. The clock is listed there, but the narrative may not have been fully up-dated.

Land And Sea Collection

Any comments anyone has as to how the listing can be improved for accuracy and completeness will be appreciated.

To Lindell Riddle,

Many thanks for your extensive and detailed comments. Hope you are feeling better. These Winter and Spring colds are always a bother.

I think it is good to discuss eBay listings on forums since a reader can gather a vast amount of information from people who presumably are better informed, but some care should be taken by not exceeding the limits of good behavior and judgment.

From my vantage point, I think my original post was properly placed in the Ilinois Research Forum, and I am happy to see a mirror image in the Military Timepiece Discussion.

Frankly, I wasn't even aware that I had switched the company's name and mistakenly used CLOCK CO in the title and in the listing's heading. Thank you for brining it to my attention. That has now been changed to Illinois Watch Co. which was used correctly throughout the remainder of the listing ab initio.

If you're objecting to my use of the adjective "rare", the word refers to the marine gimbal mount and the paperwork and not the movement. Since we know of only three of these by Illinois Watch Co. in a marine mount, I think it is fully justified.

Unfortunately, I don't understand why you would think this clock should not to be considered as part of the surviving company's history since, as far as I can determine, it was made by the company that gave birth though a series of reorganizations and name changes to the Illinois Watch Company that was purchased by Hamilton.

If for some reason you feel that the watch's date of manufacture of 1897 does not qualify it as being directly related to the successor company and therefore, "unrelated", that is your opinion to make, but it doesn't change the facts as I understand them. IMO, to suggest my references to the successors' history are unrelated is like saying a great grand son is unrelated to his great grand father.

In doing my internet research on the Illinois Watch Company the returns I received formed the basis of my knowledge of the company and what I wrote. There are so many examples, all of which, are essentially saying the same thing, that I don't believe it adds much to provide links to them.

BTW, it took al lot more effort to find my way to this organization' site, and I am glad I did.

Again I welcome your input. Thank you Lindell.

Hello Everyone,

Yesterday, I had a long conversation with someone who through his own initiative was able to find my phone number. He had read both threads and called me, as an owner of a similar clock, to tell me what he knew about Illinois boxed chronometers. Counting the three we know of this brings the total to around eleven if none are the same.

The consensus among the owners is that the source of these clocks is from Roth Brothers, New York who was a well known repackager of movements for the Navy and Maritime Commission at the beginning of WW II. I have sold a number of their bulkhead (wall mount) models over the years. Previously I had rejected this connection because I only knew of their supplying clocks which had their own name on the dial, and all the Illinois clocks had Illinois faces.

This conversation convinced me to go back to Marvin Whitney's book on Military Timepieces, and read what he said about Roth Brothers. See pages 389-391. It is clear that contrary to how Roth packaged bulkhead clocks with their name, that it was their practice to keep the name of the movements' maker on the dial of the watches that were converted to marine use.

Whitney provides pictures of three boxed chronometers, Hamilton, Elgin, and Waltham. He also lists all the movements that Roth used nine by name, and Illinois is not among them. All of them are boxed in a plain 5" square, three tier case without any name tags as was Roth's standard practice. They also were supplied with a strapped carrying case.

It is clear from this that the Illinois watches in boxed movements are all likely from Roth though there is the possibility that some may have come from M. Low which did the same thing at the same time.

Consequently, I now agree with the majority that the clock I have is an Illinois Watch Co. 1897 movement in a standard Roth gimbaled brass tub, box and carrying case. Its movement is rather ordinary and nothing to brag about. However, its other distinguishing features are that it has the Naval Observatory rating sheet, its better than average condition, the carrying case, and it is keeping chronometer rated time.

I have removed the eBay listing, and will do a major re-write.

Thanks all for your participation,

Hello all,

You may review the revised listing on this clock here. See http://landandseacollection.com/id448.html

All details are in our eBay store.