I NEED INFORMATIONS REGARDING PRIVATE LABEL BECKS SPECIAL MADE BY ILLINOIS.I KNOW IS A GRADE 304,16 SIZE 21 JEWELS MADE ONLY IN 2 RUN BETWEEN 1915 AND 1916 WITH A TOTAL PRODUCTION OF ONLY 60!!
I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHERE MR. BECK WAS FROM,IF THERE IS ANY LITERATURE OR ADS ABOUT HIM, YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT THIS GRADE AND WHY GRADE 304 IS NOT REPORTED IN THE COMPLETE PRICE GUIDE BOOK..?
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

Andrea

Any chance you have the first name of Beck? There was a L.M. Beck who was a jeweler in Fort Wayne Ind. around the turn of the century, searching the web I found a Hampden with his name on it, wondered if it might be the same Beck. LM Beck was apparently located at 911 Calhoun Street

Tom

A little more looking & I found a Beck's in Michigan City Ind. also, in the Illinois book it lists a Beck's Special as Michigan City Ind. ca. 1896. The Beck in Michigan City started his business there in 1876.

I would bet both these Beck's are either the same jeweler or related since they are both in Indiana, at least that is my guess.

Tom

Tom,thank you very much.Unfortunately I do not know the first name,the dial of the watch is just signed "Becks Special" as well the movement.The serial number on the movement is 2,941,881.
I will keep search!

Andrea

I would bet you watch was for the same one mentioned in the Illinois guide, since it also listed it as a Beck's Special. So it would be the one from Michigan City Indiana.

I will keep doing some more searching & see if I can find more.

Tom

Tom,

thank you very much for your help! Here the pictures of dial and movement

and movement..

Bytheway, i just bought it on Ebay

Tom,
looks like Beck Jewerly was a well known store in michigan city,indiana.I could not find any other Becks in my search..In my opinion this was a special order made for Beck,It would be very interesting to know how many grade 304 movements Illinois did produce..or if in fact they did produce only 60..? Also,i cannot find any reference about this grade and is not mentioned in the Complete Price Watch 2008 and i wonder why?
Can you tell me what the Illinois book says about this grade?
Thanks!

I tried to scan in all the info I could find on the serial numbers, grade & Beck. Hope it helps
Tom

Tom,
thank you very much!It looks like that grade 304 in 21 jewels has been produced in a very limited number!According to your research only 50 movements.Running the Illinois database that i have it says 60.It would be nice to verify it.Hopefully the illinois experts can help with it.
According the Illinois database that i have:

2789821-2789830 made 10 year 1915

2941851-2941900 made 50 year 1916

My question is..Illinois watch co. made this grade 304- 21 jewels ONLY as special order for BECK?It sounds little bit strange, isn't?

About the 17 jewels grade 304 :

made 70,260 of 125 run between 1909 and 1929.

It looks like the 21 jewels of grade 304 has been produced only for Beck in a very limited number,only 60!I think that is really amazing. .

Thank you

Here what Indiana Historical Society found about Becks in Michigan Indiana.I am still looking for pictures of their store!

"1905: A Mr. John F. Beck, born in Germany around 1854, is listed as a jeweler and optician at 205 Franklin Street ; his daughter Katherine, born around 1881, is also listed as an optician.



From the census records I saw, it seems John Beck probably died before 1910.



1923/23: There is a listing for Becks Jewelry Co., run by Katherine Beck and her sister, Christine Beck, at 511 Franklin Street . The ad for the company says, “Gifts that Last”



1936/37: lists the same information



1947: the same, but includes that the store sells “jewelry and gifts”"

I still would like to mention the Rarity of grade 304 in 21 jewels.Hopefully in the next "Bible" they will underline too!

Interesting information Andrea, keep posting what you find out, I like the story.

Tom

Andrea, just to add to the confirmation of this, the Ehrhardt-Meggers "Gold Bible" pg 233 confirms this 16s 21 Jewel "Becks Special" without any guesswork at to the actual grade. The many "X"'s in E-M listing shows that so little was known that until yours surfaced now, they finally chose just to confirm it's manufacture but had no pictures of one. Had they seen that it was a 2-tone movement, I think they would guess that it is a grade 306. You have a Rare piece indeed.

David,thank you.
According to the Illinois database this wacth is adjusted to temperature,positions,isochronism,(total 7!)double roller... but Settings is Pendant and not Lever,and if it was not for this reason it could be considered easily a Railroad Grade!
My guess is Illinois made this "high grade" movement as special order only since iam sure the cost was similiar to a RR pocket watch, but it was not, since the Pendant setting.The movement is similiar to a Sangamo Special 21 jewels..
I made better pictures now but they are too big to attach them on here(and i am not good with computers!),so if you give me an email address i will be more then happy to email them to you for your records and study,of course if you are interested.
Thank you

Andrea, send them to david@glopar.com and I will also process them and post them here if you want.

David,
thank you,yes please do it.

Andrea Here is the best I can do with your picture

I did compare it to one of my 23J Sangamo's, and your Beck has much more fancy Damaskeening.

Andrea,
I believe that many railroad watch inspectors were also retail jewelers and that that being an inspector led to increased watch sales along the railroads where they peddeled their goods. The John Becks that you mentioned appears to have been an inspector for the LNA&C railway (Louisville,New Albany and Chicago)in the early 1890's as cited in Greg Fraunhoff's book "Railroad Watch Inspectors".
He also mentions a Will H. Beck in Sioux City, Iowa, an inspector on the Illinois Central railroad in 1892. Hope this helps.. Lovely watch btw.

Ray

David,Ray,
first of all let me thank you for your help and comments.I really appeciate it!
After studying all the books i have about Illinois Sangamo Special i came out to this guessing and i would appreciate your comments about my "findings" and opinion.I am sure Lindell will be very helpfull too with his comments and experience

a)Grade 304 in 21 jewels is a model 7 (pendant set) TRUE BRIDGE-The Sangamo Special Model 9 is Lever set and from serial number 2,541,331 till 2,835,800 were TRUE BRIDGE,and from serial number 2,868,041 to 4,761,000 were FALSE BRIDGE.

b)The Sangamo Special 21 jewels FALSE BRIDGE starts from serial number 2,968,001 while the last Sangamo Special TRUE BRIDGE serial number is 2,835,800.

c)My watch serial number is 2,941,881.

d)After the serial number 2,868,401 all the Sangamo Special become False Bridge.

e)An Interesting point for consideration and discussion is the subject of engraving colors on model 9 Sangamo Special.The earliest ones were gold in color and the last ones were red.On my watch as you can see from the pictures are gold and the damaskeening is much more defined then any other Sangamo Special i have ever seen.

Now, my point is this and I would like to hear from your comments:
IS THIS WATCH CAN BE CONSIDERED A PRIVATE LABEL SANGAMO SPECIAL 21 JEWELS??

Thank you

Andrea,
If ordered in large enough quantity I would not be surprised if Illinois made a "special" batch of watches for Becks. Serial # 2,941,866 is also a 21j Becks special so it would stand to reason that a large number, or maybe even all of these alloted 50 serial numbers in that run may have been for Becks.
I dont know if your watch could be called a Sangamo Special P.L. but may instead fall into the Sangamo grade watch which was private labeled.
Certainly needs more research for sure.
Ray

Here other infos I found about Beck jewerly store in Michigan City, Indiana:

"The first telephone was installed in Michigan City in 1879, just three years following its invention by Alexander Graham Bell. Some businessmen had the 'new fangled' instruments in their stores, but it was not until 1894 that the Merchants Mutual Telephone Co. came into existence. At that time, the 58 subscribers paid $1 for service to homes and $2 for service to businesses. Franklin Street had been graded and planked in 1850, and in 1887 cedar blocks were laid on that surface. A system of numbering the houses followed in 1892. Many retail establishments which were operating into the mid-20th century had their beginnings in this era. Aicher's Furniture Store was founded in 1867 and Beck's Jewelry Store in 1876. Carstens' Dry Goods Store opened in 1879 and Bartholomew Hardware Co. in 1880 Feallock's Shoe Store was founded in 1885 and the Henry Lumber Co. in 1894. Grieger's Clothing Store, according to a newspaper centennial edition, was in business in 1890. The Spanish-American War and a visit by President William McKinley closed out the 19th century with a flourish. Historians report that Michigan City men were among the first to volunteer in the war against Spain. In 1899, at the close of the war, President McKinley passed through Michigan City on his special train. He made a three-minute speech from the station platform to the assembled crowd, and a 21-gun salute was fired in his honor from the crest of Hoosier Slide."

...and a print of Michigan City in the middle 1800's

Here is a picture of Franklin street in early 1900's where the Becks had their jewerly store.I am still looking for the actual picture of their store

Francklin St. around end 1800,s..

Franklin St. late 1930's...Beck Jewerly store should be the one on the right with withe signs..

HELLO ALL

NEXT WEEK I WILL GET BACK FROM MY WATCHMAKER THIS BEAUTIFULL AND RARE WATCH.THE WATCH HAS BEEN CLEANED/SERVICED CHANGED THE CRYSTAL AND POLISHED THE CASE.DIAL AND HANDS ARE NEAR MINT CONDITION WITH NO HAILRLINES,CHIPS OR CRACKS.I HAVE DECIDED TO LIST IT ON HERE FOR SALE FOR A FEW DAYS.
IN MY HUMBLE OPINION THIS WATCH IS A GREAT FIND,NOT ONLY FOR THE VERY LIMITED PRODUCTION NUMBER OF GRADE 304 21 JEWELS 16 SIZE BUT ALSO FOR THE CONDITION OF THE WATCH.THIS WATCH IS A 4 TO 5 STARS RARITY AND SINCE IT IS NOT LISTED IN THE SHUGART BOOK 2008 I WILL LIST AS BUY IT NOW OR BEST OFFER.
WHAT WOULD BE, IN YOUR OPINION , THE BUY IT NOW PRICE FOR A WATCH OF THIS RARITY AND CONDITION,BUT NOT LISTED IN THE"BIBLE"??

THANK YOU FOR ANY ADVISE OR COMMENTS,

ANDREA

THE ONLY ILLINOIS 4 STARS 16 SIZE 21 JEWELS, THAT I COULD FIND TO COMPARE IT, IS A D & R.G.(DENVER & RIO GRANDE)PRIVATE LABEL.BOOK PRICE $3100-4000-5500.DO YOU THINK THIS CAN BE A FAIR PRICE FOR MY BECKS SPECIAL?

ANDREA

and here a nice picture of the rare grade 304,16 size 21 jewels signed"Becks Special" both dial and movement.

FOR SALE,I ACCEPT OFFERS NOW AT:

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/6346095371

THANK YOU AND HAPPY HOLLIDAYS!

It came to a good home for our namesakes!!!