Great find Lin!!!

Does anyone have a clue as to how high this one will go?

Tom

Bill jumped from 1927 to 1929 in the book. Assume he was getting his "introduced" dates from catalogues, so quite possible they were out prior to hitting the cats. Also, wonder about the serial # dates ... they could be off a year or so.

The 21j was mentioned in the same paragraph, as having been introduced in the mod 29 case and the 181 case.

I have a boxed example with alum inner case, corrugated, etc. Yep, everything but THE WATCH.
It is # 5028608, and the label reads very much like the one on ebay, except for the large red 23.
It is marked as a 14 karat case. I will try to find a pic or take one and post it.

Charlie

the box doesn't state the case number or style that i can see. who's to say it came in a first model case?

I was thinking the same thing Don, and there is no case model # or serial # on my box.

The designation of 10k or 14k does mean that there was some kind of case in the box ... ie, factory cased. Which case, we don't know.

Tom, initially, I would have guessed it would bring $1400-$1600, since it is already $1400 +, I think it will bring $1800 - $2000. Nice high grade bunn spls have been up lately.

Charlie

Well, It appears we are rewriting part of the book here!

I had always believed the Illinois book to be gospel on this point as I thought Meggars probably had based this on some highly credible reference. In reading this text Meggars seemed adamant in his statement that the 23J Bunn Sp. had not been cased at the factory until 1929. I had always wondered why they would case a 21J 60 Hour and not a 23J 60 Hour???

However, when I saw this aution on ebay the other day the "light bulb" came on and I called a friend of mine who I remembered had one of these exact same early 23J boxes. I remember seeing it back when he bought it a couple years ago at an antique show. (He paid 200 for just the box, no watch) I called him early this evening and it is just the same as I remember it and just like this box on ebay, however the kicker is this: The serial number on his box (and it is again,a box only) is 4,818,537 which is late 1926 by the Illinois factory ledger!!. There is no question in my mind that it is an original box and label just as the one on ebay. This is A lot earlier than most all Illinois collectors and the book acknowledge to be correct for a 23J bunn to have a Bunn case. None the less there was the proof before my eyes.

That said, the other factor for consideration is this: The only case this early watch 4,818,537 could have come with in late 1926 was a First Model Bunn Case, as that was the only bunn case in production at that time. It is also possible that the one on ebay is all original as well with that in mind. Of course the "Yellow 10 Karat Gold filled" First model case could have been switched on to it, but what are the odds that they would have got the serial numbers on the case to "jive" with the same year as the movement? I am about the only one I know of that has collected serial numbers through out the years on Illinois Wadsworth cases well enough to exactly date one of these cases, and I do admit the case numbers and the movement numbers match perfectly time wise on the current auction example, both early 1928 by my records and database on Wadsworth Illinois cases.

My final question is now this: Just how early were the 23J bunn's cased? Could a Type I or II have been cased as well? I would only suggest that it is very possible. After all, why would Illinois case some of the late common 21J model 9's and some of the early Type I and II 21J Bunn's and then absolutely not case some of the more prestigious early 23J Bunn Special 60 Hours? I think, in time, we may well find some documentation of a boxed original early 23J Bunn Type I or II that was factory cased as well.

I CAN say that I have seen a few early type I and II 23J Bunns in Bunn cases where both the case and movement "jived" and dated to the same respective year, 1925, 26, or 27 over the last 3 decades of my chasing watches. I however, always regarded these very few 23J examples with Bunn Cases as creative switching at best as there was no box to verify it either way. I now however, highly suspect that the 23J Bunn sixty hour, which we all know, of course, were not "ALL" factory cased until 1929 but I DO THINK that "some" just like the 21J Bunn were probably factory cased from the beginning with the advent of the early 60 Hour movements, based on this new information. It would just stand to simple reason that Illinois would case the better 23J movement along with the lesser 21J as well.

I will be able to provide a documentation of the photos of this box I mentioned by this weekend at the latest. Lastly, I think Mr Meggars would be proud of our fine tuning his book by the way!....Happy Hunting!

where is the "Co." on this one that should say Illinois Watch Co.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10308&item=4978998865&rd=1

on the type 2 double marked page 115 in my blue book the total production is listed as "500 RRG"

the serial number range allows for 650
4718351 to 471900 about three years ago i had one that railman11 now owns. rich k took it apart and all of the serial numbers matched. someone may have collected that serial number at the time. i didn't write it down. but i am pretty sure it was 4718898..............?

Hi Don, I think that your question should perhaps be in a different topic, but I will answer and say that the watch in the attached auction is a 5,218,xxx serial number dating to 1929 not 4,718,xxx and 5.2 million is well after the Hamilton takeover.

This is the 4th watch from this run that I have recorded that does NOT have the "Co." as the factory was deleting this designation from the train bridge as they ran through the old inventory. Maybe your eyes were playing tricks on you and you got the numbers mixed up or you just didn't look close, you know they say the eyes are the second thing to go, can't remember what the first one is, ha!

Anyway, hope this helps and maybe this can be moved to a seperate post by the moderator as it is entirely different from the subject of how early were the 23J Bunn Specials cased. Happy Hunting!...

hi mike, i guess i made two seperate comments. the first being about the 23 jewel type 3 in the auction link.

the other was in regards to the type 2 23 jewel.

on the type 2 double marked page 115 in my blue book the total production is listed as "500 RRG"the serial number range allows for 650

4718351 to 471900 about three years ago i had one that railman11 now owns. rich k took it apart and all of the serial numbers matched. someone may have collected that serial number at the time. i didn't write it down. but i am pretty sure it was 4718898..........

in an effort to imply that there are some "minor" errors in the illinois book this one might have been a typo or a mathmatical error on page 115. a serial block allowing for 550 but total production being listed as 500....i went and made a math error above....

terry might have the serial number of the one i owned. i believe he is the one who suggested i have the trainbridge removed to verify that the numbers matched the visible numbers on the barrel bridge,

Don, the range you are inquiring about has both type I and type II 23j Bunn Specials included in it by my records. This is a mixed run and with numbers still being recorded we have not pinned down exact production of the type I's and II's as there are also 2 other runs where the type II's and III's are mixed as well, so research will take more time, but the run you are inquiring about is definitely mixed between I's and II's. Hope this helps. Happy Hunting!

Below you will see the picture of the box that a friend of mine owns, which once upon a time, housed a Brand new Factory Cased 23-Jewel Bunn Special dating to late 1926 production. The box is without question original.

Pictures ARE indeed worth a thousand words and do tell the story... and the story we are telling is that we now know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 23J Bunn Special WAS cased at the factory way before 1929 contradicting the Illinois book on page 49. Happy Hunting!

Mike,
Thanks for sharing that "Bunn Special" history. Do you know if this style box was used to end of production? Thanks in advance.

Robert

I would think this size box would have been for the aluminum inner boxes.... an outer box...

the dimensions look proportionally different than the later boxes...... ????

Looks to be quite expencine aswell, 7 minutes left and almost $3000.
Interesting information, thanks all.
/Bernhard

Good shooting, Fred.....

I bet you're glad I blew my allowance a couple of weeks ago....

Lindell,
Thanks for sharing your great images. This combination must be as "rare" as 1913 'V' Nickel. Have you seen a 161B in this combination?

Thanks,
Robert

Just to add to the info in this post on the boxes, there were at least 2 other "style" and color cardboard boxes used between the early 1928 example at the top and Lindell's very nice 163A which the book dates as 1931.

I have one which dates to around early 1931 as it is marked Elinvar and 107 Model case like Lindell's but the box is another color (burgandy) and probably serves as the only box for the watch as the inner portion of the box which slides into the outer sleeve is very reinforced with thick walls to hold the watch secure and tight. That and the fact that they may have been looking for a way to cut costs after the depression hit in late 1929 is the reason they may have eliminated the inner aluminum box. So these are two reasons why I say that it was probably the only box that came with the watch.

A little bit later in 1931 and '32 they may have felt a need to return to a strong inner box and use the cardboard box exclusively as an outer box. As Lindell's 163A has a nice protective, hardshell inner box with the outer soft cardboard box. Again, As Terry says the early cardboard boxes were the outer boxes as they housed the inner Aluminum boxes which the book says were discontinued in 1929 and these are slightly larger than mine.....so again there were approximately 4 different style and color boxes with these Bunn Specials that I have seen.

My cardboard (Elinvar) Bunn Special Box is 3 & 1/8th inches tall and 2 & 3/4 inches wide and 1 & 1/4 inches thick. This is somewhat smaller than the earlier cardboard boxes and I would guess smaller than Lindell's outer cardboard box as well, so with that in mind, What are the dimentions of your outer cardboard box Lindell?

Thanks in advance and Sorry for my delay in posting to Robert's question. Happy Hunting!

Lin, Mike, Terry et al., thanks so much for the wealth of info on the highly collectible factory-cased Bunn Specials. The info posted on this topic could well be the germ of a really fascinating book on late Illinois railroad watches!

Ed,
I totally agree with your comments. These IHC185 watch experts have a wealth of information and willingly share what they have.

Thanks,
Robert

My first picture post: These are the Illinois Bunn Special boxes that I am aware of.
The dates are from the serial numbers on the boxes (from Shugart).
My understanding is that the Aluminum Cigarette boxes were used between 1925 and 1929. Hamilton/Illinois obviously used quite a variety of attractive packaging.
On the far right one like Lindell shared above in this topic.

Good picture, Bryan and those are all the Illinois Bunn Special boxes that I am familiar with as well.

I will make note of the fact that the Early slip cover boxs with aluminum inserts date 1926(possibly earlier) to 1929, the cloth covered box dates 1929-1930 , the paper covered box dates as early as 1931-until the late 30's and I have only seen the clamshell case with outer brown box on the 163A's.....this is all I can add to your picture.

Sure wish we could see more of these boxes so we could pinpoint more accurately but they just don't come around that often. Hopefully there will be more posted for our viewing pleasure. Thanks again for a nice picture for us to see them all side by side.

If there are any other different styles or variants of these boxes I am not aware of them. Happy Hunting!....

Thank You Bryan!!

I have one of the paper covered boxes that Bryan is referring to above. I have also seen others in the past year since his post and they dated to 1931/32 or so and as Bryan has made reference to 1938 (I assume by serial #) above in his great photo which has a wealth of info we can only assume during the early, and mid to late 1930's during the Great Depression, they were using whatever boxes were available, not to waste anything. Just another tidbit of information for the great Illinois puzzle we are attempting to put together, and keep 'em coming!

here is a 21 jewel model 29

serial number (movement) matches ... case serial number is 8333409

i see that this one is already on the serial list....