How can you tell if the watch is a 60Hr model if you can't hold it in your hands a wind it up.
Since many of these watches are unmarked, is there another way of determining a 60Hr from one that is not?

I collect mainly the earlier Illinois so hopefully someone can correct me if I am wrong here, but I have always understood that the 17 size Sangamo Special with the red border on the balance cock is the non-60 hour model 10, those without the red border are the 60 hour model 13 (the last few runs of which are marked "Sixty Hour").

The non-60 hour model 10 will have an earlier serial number in the 3 millions, the 60 hour model 13 will be in the 4 millions.

And of course the Bunn and Bunn Special 60 hours are marked as such (with the possible exception of one strange watch Russ Snyder turned up last year).

Fred

what fred said about the red border is one of the tells........ along with the serial number..

But the model 10 was made in both 16 and 17 size... and the 17 size model 10 serial numbers will also go into the 4 million range...

Meggers says the red border only differentiates between the model 10 and 13. I don't think it has anything to do with 60Hr models. The one I am looking at is a model 13. I have not seen anything in Meggers' serial number denoting 60Hr models.

If this may help you, here is a picture of my 23J Sangamo along with description.

Description: Size: 17 - Jewels: 23RSJ - Model: 13 - Grade: SANGAMO SPECIAL - Year: 1925 - # Made: 9,810 - # of runs: 11, Between 1923 and 1926.

Movement Lettering: SANGAMO SPECIAL - 23 JEWELS - MOTOR BARREL - ADJUSTED TEMP. AND SIX POSITIONS - ILLINOIS WATCH CO. - SPRINGFIELD - D.R.

Movement Description: "Sangamo Special" - Temperature, six positions, isochronism - Ruby and saphire jewels in raised gold settings, gold balance screws and rounded & polished gold train wheels - Unmarked 60 hour mainspring - Patent regulator - Cased at the factory.

Movement Finish: Broad transverse band pattern, damaskeened nickel with red-filled engraving.

Dial: 17-size sunk seconds or double-sunk glass enamel bold Arabic or modern Gothic regular or Montgomery dial, or non-tarnishable silvered metal dial.

As I understand it, the model 13/10 distinction reflects the presence/absence of the 60 hour mainspring.

The outline on the balance cock or lack thereof provides a convenient way to tell these watches apart at a glance, but is not of itself the basis for the new model number 13 having been used.

Also Jerry, on pages 63-65 of Meggers book there is a section on model identifications, and on page 64 you will see the lines ... "From the 6th model on, the only significant change were: introdution of the motor barrel in the 10th Model, the 60-hour mainspring in the 13th Model, and the use of Elinvar in the 15th Model, after the Hamilton Watch Co. acquired Illinois."

Fred

So, what were saying is all 17 size model 13 Sangamo Specials have a 60hr motor barrel. Is that corect? The one I looked at is serial number 4642110, not too far from the one you have shown. Thanks to all who helped out on this.

Jerry Freedman

that's it jerry............

Jerry,

To the best of my knowledge, the 17-size Model 13 Sangamo Special with the "un-marked" 60-hour main spring was produced in only the following eleven production runs (with year of production):

4,166,001 - 4,167,000 (1923)
4,266,461 - 4,266,480 (1923)
4,556,001 - 4,557,000 (1925)
4,558,001 - 4,559,000 (1925)
4,626,001 - 4,627,000 (1925)
4,628,001 - 4,629,000 (1925)
4,642,001 - 4,643,000 (1925)
4,644,001 - 4,645,000 (1925)
4,720,001 - 4,721,000 (1926)
4,734,001 - 4,735,000 (1926)
4,736,001 - 4,736,770 (1926)

This yields a total of 9,780 watches, with all but the 2nd run & the final run consisting of 1,000 watches each.

In addition, there were 3 production runs of the Model 13 with "Sixty Hour" markings, with a total of 2,230 made in this fashion. These runs include:

4,736,771 - 4,737,000 (1926)
4,758,001 - 4,759,000 (1926)
4,760,001 - 4,761,000 (1926)

Thus, the first run of Model 13 watches marked SIXTY HOUR essentially "finishes off" the run of 1,000 watches that began with the unmarked version.

Prior to the Model 13, the 17-size also appears as a Model 10 (conventional mainspring) as follows:

3,693,001 - 3,694,600 (1920)
3,775,001 - 3,777,000 (1920)
3,862,001 - 3,864,000 (1921)

These last three runs all (it is assumed) have the distinction of a red border on the balance cock, whereas (again, it is assumed) the Model 13 lacks this red border.

I used the term "assumed" because no one has actually seen all movements; however, known watches DO follow this pattern of red border vs. no red border. The earliest Model 13 I have seen is from the end of the first run (4,166,957), which leaves 950+ as possible exceptions to the "red-border" rule. Other collectors may have earlier Model 13 movements than what I have seen.

Russ

Just a small addition to Russ's notes , in the first run 4,166,001- Model 13's only make up the last 200 block of the run. The first 800 are Model 10's. Talking with Bill Meggars back in the 90's he stated he and most all the collectors he had talked with believed that Illinois did this on the last 200 watchs of this run to "test" the market of a 60 hour watch as you can see it predates the Bunn Special 60 hour watchs by over a year and one half. These Sangamo Specials were of course not marked 60 hour but the movement is 1/2 millimeter thicker than the model 10's.Nothing you can notice at a glace with your eye but just a small bit of info that it was a very definite change. The lack of the red border on the balance bridge identifies it as a model 13 AS LONG AS the bridge has not been changed by a butcher. If you want to know if you can tell if it is a 60 hour by sight, one always needs to know the serial number range. This is your only acid proof identification of what a watch is suppossed to be. It is the first thing I look at when I look at a watch as the serial number tells a knowledgeable collector what the watch is "suppossed" to be the same as your name and SS# is your identification. There will always be the exception to the rule or something new that was not known to exist or maybe an earlier example than previously recorded , but it will allow you 99.9% of the time to KNOW what you are looking at, that is the reason I place a high importance on knowing the numbers if you are going to collect a certain type of watch, as anything outside of the range can be viewed as suspect until proven legit and it can pay off in time saved and money lost at shows as well. Additionally, if you have a copy of the Illinois book by Meggars, then you will note a check mark in the ledger page beside this run beginning at 4,166,001 indicating he or another collector had seen a model 10 from this run as that is the way he listed it. I have seen several model 10's from this run 4,166,00 through the years so I can confirm that only the last 200 from the run are thought to be model 13's. Until one is confirmed earlier than 4,166,801 it should serve as the first Sixty Hour Model 13 Sangamo Special out of respect to Bill Meggars in my humble opinion . He worked his rear off along with the early pioneer collectors from the 60's and 70's to provide us with the foundation of info of what we have today. Lastly, The Model 13 Illinois is defined as exactly this and only this: "Motor Barrel ,Bridge Movement, Sixty Hour." .... marked Sixty Hour or unmarked ..hope this helps.