Internet Horology Club 185
18-Size RRG Illinois Movement Variety Images -- YOUR HELP IS REQUESTED!
June 22, 2013, 22:02Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
18-Size RRG Illinois Movement Variety Images -- YOUR HELP IS REQUESTED!
I've undertaken a project to pull together a centralized source of collector information on the Illinois 18-size RRG Model 5 and Model 6 full-plate movements, one of my favorite families of watches.
What is so fascinating to me about these watches is the tremendous diversity of varieties and variants, and how they changed through the years, as so superbly set forth in "The Blue Illinois Bible" (aka Meggers & Ehrhardt's Illinois Watch Co. Encyclopedia and Price Guide, American Pocket Watches Volume 2
, Heart of America Press, 1985). However it's a big heavy book and not the s in a hurry.
So I've undertaken to boil down some of the key bits of collector information in an online format that's handy to use when you want to look up something you saw in a posting here, an online auction. etc.
What I'd like to start with is to assembly a group of good color photos of the 8 damaskeening patterns of the nickel movements that will be more clear and easier to use than the so-so quality black & white photocopy images in the book.
These are (see Meggers & Ehrhardt, pages 83-88 and 92-94):
1. First Pattern -- Circular.
2. Second Pattern -- Wavy Ribbon Gold Inlaid.
3. Third Pattern -- Gold Inlaid Circle.
4. Fourth Pattern -- Bright Spotted.
5. Fifth Pattern -- Sunburst.
6. Sixth Pattern -- Narrow Stripes.
7. Seventh Pattern -- Circular All-Over-Gold.
8. Eighth Pattern -- All-Over Gold-Inlaid Linear-Circular.
Now what I'd like to do is have members post pictures of examples of all the different patterns. In our combined collections, I'm sure we have them all.
Once we collect all the images, I'll resize them, adjust lighting, etc. as needed to make them look consistently nice and repost them in a photo archive that we all can use as a handy reference.
As topic-starter, I get to go first and post the easiest one of the lot Fourth Pattern -- Bright Spotted
June 22, 2013, 22:16Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
I'll also post a less common one, though it's not too great a photo and the whip spring is broken.
If you have a better example, please feel free to post it.
Sixth Pattern -- Narrow Stripes
June 22, 2013, 22:22Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
OK guys, post your pics, let's see what you've got!
Don't be bashful, if you think you've got a better image of a particular pattern than one that is already posted, please go ahead and post your version as well.
June 22, 2013, 23:24Roger Stephens
Here is a Model 6 Sunburst pattern
Fifth Pattern -- Sunburst
June 22, 2013, 23:31Roger Stephens
Model 6 Spider web pattern
a.k.a. Fourth Pattern -- Bright Spotted
June 22, 2013, 23:43Jon Hart
Older two tone 21j
a.k.a. Third Pattern -- Gold-Inlaid Circle
June 23, 2013, 07:04Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Wow! Nice pictures guys, this project has hit the ground running!
Nobody has posted a First Pattern example yet, so I'll post this one I found here on the forum (thanks to Bill Manders).
First Pattern -- Circular -- Gold-Filled Engraving.
June 23, 2013, 07:55Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
As long as I'm swiping images other members have posted in other topics, here a nice example of the Second Pattern from Lorne Wasylishen:
Second Pattern -- Wavy Ribbon Gold-Inlaid Nickel with Gold-Filled Engraving
June 23, 2013, 08:51Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
I couldn't find an example of the Seventh Pattern on our site, but I did find a rather washed-out PL example in an online auction, with an incorrect balance bridge and only a few traces of the original all-over gold flash left.
Too bad, it must have been a dazzler in its day, until someone I wouldn't want working on my watches washed practically all the "All-Over Gold" off the plates with a power-cleaner and the balance was switched.
I apologize for posting such a sad example, but it's all I could find on short notice. Hopefully someone will come along and post a better one.Seventh Pattern -- Circular All-Over Gold (Gold Flash 95% Gone) -- Note Incorrect Balance Bridge.
June 23, 2013, 09:56Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Well, we've now assembled a set of pics that includes all the patterns except the scarcest, the Eighth Pattern -- All-Over Gold-Inlaid Circular Linear. According to Mr. Meggers, this pattern only appeared on Variety 7 and Variety 8 21-jewel Bunn Specials, which had a combined total production of only 300 watches.
There's an 8th Pattern image shown at the bottom left of Meggers & Ehrhardt page 93. We may have to scan that in to complete our set, unless another member has a watch from that select group or a picture of one.
June 24, 2013, 02:30Lorne Wasylishen
The 8th pattern, image courtesy Jones Horan although I haven't yet actually gotten a reply to my request to use this image.
According to Mr. Meggers, this pattern only appeared on Variety 7 and Variety 8 21-jewel Bunn Specials, which had a combined total production of only 300 watches.
This watch sold for $2100 in 2006. Eighth Pattern -- All-Over Gold-Inlaid Circular Linear
June 24, 2013, 08:45Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Thanks so much Lorne, that's a beautiful 8th Pattern image that I'd like to use, along with the 2nd Pattern image I "swiped" from you. Fittingly, it really DOES look like something "EXTRA" as the movements are marked in those 2 varieties.
That was very resourceful of you, I hadn't thought of looking on the J&H site. That's where I'll go to look next to look for a better 7th Pattern Image, which we could really use.
Anyway, I going to be building my 18S Bunn & Bunn Special archive
I don't think J & H folks would have any objections, as they are IHC185 members and their images have been posted on the site many times before. I think the images in their open-to-the-public online catalogs would be considered public domain event, as long as no copyright is asserted.
June 24, 2013, 09:49Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Now I'll start building the 18S Bunn & Bunn Special Archive
Everything is going in here:
18S Bunn & Bunn Special Archive
The production summary by jewel count is already in, and now I'm going to start adding the damaskeening photos we have now, after leaving some space for more detailed production data I may want to put in later.
I'd appreciate it if you could look at this topic from time to time as I build it. The archive itself will have to remain an "information only" (closed or locked) topic, but youare welcome to post your comments and suggestions in this topic.UPDATE:
The First Pattern is now in the archive, the way I plan to do all the other patterns. Check it out and tell me what you think.
NOTE: Don't be concerned about all the "blank" replies you will see there, building an archive on this discussion board platform requires careful planning, and staking out plenty of blank "replies" in each portion of the archive ahead of time. This is because while you can always delete replies, you can't insert any new ones into an existing "discussion," you can only add new "replies" at the end.
June 24, 2013, 14:01Lorne Wasylishen
Here is a better shot of the 7th pattern again courtesy of Jones Horan. Seventh Pattern -- Circular All-Over Gold
June 24, 2013, 14:05Lorne Wasylishen
Ed, in your post of the 7th pattern you state that the balance bridge is incorrect, I can't see why.
June 24, 2013, 16:48Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
I'm going by the engraving color, it's black-filled. It's supposed to be gold-filled like the example you posted.
But now that I look at it again, it looks like someone redid all the engraving in the wrong color after they washed the gold off, so I was probably being too harsh. But in any event the gold is all gone elsewhere, so it's not a nice example and I'm going to toss it.
June 24, 2013, 22:08Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Well, the first 4 patterns are posted on the archive, leaving 4 left to go.
Thanks to Lorne's resourcefulness we now have nice images for the very scarce 7th and 8th patterns, so it should be clear sailing from now on as far s the damaskeening patterns are concerned.
Please have a look at the archive and tell me what you think of it. I think you'll find out some interesting things about the 18-size Bunn's and Bunn Specials if you take a little time to do it.
Check it out!18S Bunn & Bunn Special Archive
June 25, 2013, 19:28Lorne Wasylishen
Great job so far Ed, it clears up a lot of confusion for me.
June 28, 2013, 21:12Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Image Gathering Part 2 -- The Dials
The next set of Images to go in will be the DS porcelain enamel dials that were used on the Bunn's and Bunn Specials. In rough chronological order.
1. AN or RN signed Illinois Watch Co. in Old English, then Script.
2. Bold Gothic AN signed Illinois Watch Co. in Old English with 3 variants: Open Top 4, Serif Top 4 and Pointed-Top 4.
3. Gothic AN signed Illinois Watch Co. in Old English.
4. Bold AN signed Illinois in plain block letters.
5. Plain Bold AN signed Illinois in plain bold Arabic.
I'll start off with a few images I've been collecting. I'd like your help in filling in the gaps and posting better versions. Some of the images I've collected aren't so hot.
Here's an early AN dial with Illinois Watch Co. in Old English. (Photo Credit: Bill Manders)
June 28, 2013, 21:16Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Now here's an early RN dial with Illinois Watch Co. in script. (Photo Credit : Lorne Wasylishen)
June 28, 2013, 21:25Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Now the Bold Gothic AN dials signed Illinois Watch Co. in Old English. These dials are most commonly seen on Bunn's and Bunn Specials. There are 3 variants.
Open Top 4
June 28, 2013, 21:27Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
June 28, 2013, 21:29Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Pointed Top 4
June 28, 2013, 21:42Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Bold Gothic AN Montgomery dial signed Illinois in plain bold Arabic
June 28, 2013, 21:45Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Gothic AN signed Illinois Watch Co. in Script
June 28, 2013, 21:48Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Plain Bold AN signed Illinois in plain bold Arabic
June 28, 2013, 22:10Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Bold AN signed Illinois in Plain Block Letters
June 28, 2013, 22:11Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
That's all for now. What do you think?
Please feel free to add better versions or other variants I didn't post.
June 30, 2013, 20:23Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
I just finished the production summaries by jewel count and plate pattern for Bunn's and Bunn Specials. I thought it was really interesting.
Check it out right after the pictorial summary of the plate patterns:18S Bunn & Bunn Special Archive
July 01, 2013, 12:14Lorne Wasylishen
Ed, I will try to mine through Jones & Horan for some dial shots plus take a better pic of my Roman dial.
July 01, 2013, 12:54Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
Thanks Lorne, I'd appreciate that.
July 01, 2013, 14:49Lorne Wasylishen
I hope these are suitable, doing is learning but man my head hurts.
These are all Jones & Horan except for #8 which is a retake of my dial.
1 Same as Bill Manders dial on pattern 1.
On a 17J Bunn
July 01, 2013, 14:51Lorne Wasylishen
2 Open top 4 On a 17J Bunn.