I'm having a problem with a Kieniger & Obergfell. I have cleaned and oiled the movement. Replaced the Sus. Spring. Replaced the Mainspring(twice). On examination of the movement there seems to be ample end shake, gear mesh, no bent pivots, etc. The escape wheel has tension with just 1/4 turn of the key. I have set the beat to within plus/minus 2% on a MicroSet. Oil used is "Nye"...cleaned...Slick 50(both applied with watch oilers). The "Balls" rotate approx. 340 degrees. Any yet the thing will not run(for very long)!

I'm interested in the "pallets". How are they adjusted? In otherwords how can you tell if they are too deep or too shallow? What happens in each case?

Help appreciated!
Greg

Hi Greg,
The Horolovar guide should help you figure it out. It says that the pallets should not be changed unless somebody tried to adjust them.

Andy

Just a thought Greg, did you polish the face of the pallets.I have heard this helps these clocks some.
Only other thing that comes to mind is oiling.
I hope someone can help you more than i.

I've been working on the clock all morning again. Taken apart re-cleaned, re-pegged(nothing new). Checked for bent, rough pivots, gear teeth. Placed each pivot in its respective hole to check the play (5 to 10 degrees). I did bush one hole. Ordinarily I wouldn't have...but. Placed and checked each gear between plates and observed gear mesh and travel to the last gear, etc. Wound 1 click(this is without the pallets) = nothing...2 click = escape wheel began to move...3 clicks = gears "sang"(ran for about 30 seconds to a minute). Checked tension on mainspring = none. Checked the pallets to see if they had been moved = nothing noticeable. Checked anchor pin in fork = just slide in. Checked the suspension set-up with the horlovor guide = ok. Finished putting movement together and onto platform = did not tighten the "bolts" down as tight as before(also checked the "flatness" of the plates prior to placing gears = ok). leveled the clock, turned the balls to where the pallet would un-lock...and let go. Set the balance on the escape. Checked the fork and pin again = separated the forks slightly. There are no motion works on it as yet. The balls are now only turning approx. 270 degrees(as opposed to the almost 360 degrees yesterday), however the escape action has remained the same. This is to say that the balls are traveling only slightly after pallet has released. Could this be do to separating the fork? My experience has been that the balls travel from to 1/8 to 1/4 more after pallet release.

I did polish the pallets down during the "first repair"

Any suggestions?

Greg

One more thought Greg.I heard before the nuts or whatever fasteners that hold the plates together, should not be tight as they might cause clock to stop.
I will think a while more and let you know what else i may come up with.
It can be frustrating.
Does the clock run at all and maybe you could try moving the fork down a little to get more rotation of the weights.

Hi Greg

If you do a search for Mike Murray,you will get his web page.Click on all FTP files,then scroll down to #2 which might help you out with your problem.He is the bench course instrutor for American Watchmakers/Clockmakers Institute(AWCI).
I had a clock resently were one of the fork pins was loose and I could not regulate it.This is not your problem,but just another thing to check also.

Keep Ticking

Cheers Shawn

When you polished the pallets, you didn't remove any material did you?
yes, there were deep grooves in both pallets.

Did you wind the clock fully before testing it?
During testing I wound it only a click > two>three, then when I fully assembled...I wound it all of the way.


Is the fork low enough on the anchor pin?
The fork is located on the suspension spring as in the book.

Observing the movement of the anchor pin when the clock is running, it should start smoothly and then lurch forward (this is the impulse) then continue and appear to snap a bit backwards. If you don't see a good strong lurch, the clock is not getting a good impulse which means a lack of power or friction somewhere.
"A good lurch"...I'm not sure, but lack of power is what I would think, I just can't find it.

To test for friction in the movement, remove the pallets, and press downward against the mainspring barrel with your thumb. The escape wheel should start spinning with very little pressure.
The escape wheel begins to spin with two and then three clicks of the mainspring.

After I wrote the last e-mail, I took a couple of asprin and assumed my "Zen Position". This is what I came up with. I have the exact clock sitting on a shelf. I also remembered that I had one in a box somewhere. After rummaging I came up with three of them! I've cleaned, polished the pivots, etc. I also measured the mainspring(its the same). I've gotten three of them "running in the shop now". There were a couple of noticeable differences. 1st...all of the pivots in the "new"clocks seem looser in the holes. 2nd...the plates and gears seemed to close together easier. The old one I have to "push" the "top posts" in toward the movement(or downward) to get the plates together. So, I'm thinking that maybe the plates are warped slightly...that would cause friction in the pivots. The only thing is that the gears seem to turn so readily prior to pallet and suspension spring is installed. The other thing is that on one of the "new" pallets, one of the pallets have been changed...giving me an idea of what it might look like.

Changed out the verge assy. = no luck, in fact worse.

I'm also not sure that trying to work on three of these at the same time is a good idea!!!

The "new" ones seem to be working fine as of this moment. I will not look at it again tonight, I will not look at it again tonight, I will not look at it again tonight...Blast! where are my those ruby slippers! lol

Greg

Today I finished cleaning the movementssss. The two new ones that I did yesterday were(and are) still running. I then cleaned the forth and final movement. All of these movements were alike except for how the names were stamped on the back plate.

On the new movement(the customers) I switched everything back to the original(verge and click). Then studied the differences between the movements. The gears appeared to rotate(by feel and observation) the same. In other words I did not feel or see any difference in how much power it took to turn them or how long they kept turning. I didn't find any difference in the feel or sight of how each gear meshed with the next. Exasperated I just put the movements back together(except for the motion works), and come back to it another day. As I was hanging the forks/pendulum unit...something caught my eye! The fork on the new one was upside down when compared to the others. I got the book out again and there appeared several ways of attaching the fork depending on which upper and lower blocks you had. I had, because of how the suspension unit came to me(on the new one) used 5c. The others I had used Unit 5D. So I switched the fork around as in Unit 5D. the clock(without the motion works) has been running now for 5 hours. A Record! The balls are now turning how I would expect them to...with about a 1/8th turn after pallet drop. COOL!

Now I know better than to get my hopes really high, especially since the motion works have not yet been attached...BUT at least its some progress, hopefully in the right direction

Thanks for all of the help(I may need more yet)!!

Greg

After four days running, I placed the motion works on and it stopped! Now with or without the motion works it won't run. Back to the drawing board.

Greg

Hi Greg,
I had a similar problem with a Schatz 53 mini. I stripped it down and started putting the wheels in one at a time so I could check for any runout. On my third wheel, the one driving the escape wheel, I found approx. .006" runout due to a bent pivot. I had been unable to see this with all the wheels installed. After getting the pivot straight the escape wheel would start to spin with less than one click. Just a slight pressure on the key got it going. The clock is running strongly at this time. Hope this helps.

Joe

It has been suggested before that the escape wheel should begin to spin within one click.

I should like to know more/get clear about what is meant by this statement.

In my experiance with this clock. When I begin to wind the clock(after "letting it down")...I've been taking the first click for the arbor to "catch" the spring...the second to begin tension and the third as "tension". If the movement winds down on its own...it does take only one click to start it running again. The problem with this is that "has the movement wound all of the way down or has something stopped it"?

Which way are you speaking about when you say "the wheel should start to spin with one click"? Or is there a different scenario being meant?

Greg

Someone(from another board)has been helping me with this clock also. He suggested that I remove the mainspring...clean it to remove all of the oil/grease...and then to re-place it dry. He also suggested that I not oil any of the pivots except for the winding arbor.

The clock has been working just fine for the past three days. The gentleman told me that he specializes in this area, and that this is how he does it. GO FIGURE!

many thanks
greg

...replace the spring dry!!!mon Dieu!!!never!...never!!and the pivots dry as well...this guy must sell replacement movements...

Jim and Greg, a dry spring i would think would stick. And i would oil all pivots, lightly.
I have heard much conflicting information on these clocks.
I would listen to one of the clock people here, who have been repairing for quite a while.

LOL!!! That's almost exactly what I thought. Originaly I thought "maybe this is some kind of test to figure out what is wrong with it"?

But, Like I said...other than a little regulation it is now running...where it wasn't before!

Actually, the guy has written quite a few articles, and to me seems quite knowledgable, most helpful and quite patient.

greg

Hi Greg,
I had heard on the BHI site to not wind up the mainspring to check power on the escape wheel.I am not sure why, they said use hand pressure tension on the train to test the power in the train.
I have been using mainspring tension.