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The table shows the estimated blocked serial numbers for 16 size 23 jewel Hampdens that I hope Mr. Shugart will use to provide star estimates (scarity)for these watches.there is a Word document at the bottom that is easier to read.
I will provide estimates for the scarce 21 jewel 16 size watches later this week.
Please note that actual production is often less than the blocked serial numbers and known examples are probably 10% to 20% of actual production.
Although most collectors still avoid Hampdens these were very high grade watches and can be obtained for a fraction of what a Hamilton or Illinois goes for.
16 SIZE 23 JEWEL HAMPDENS
Grade- Type- Model- Adjustments-blocked serial
94 HC 5 5pos n=100
103 HC 2 Adj n=285
HC 4 5pos n=800
HC 4 tutone5pos n=200
OF 4 5pos n=600
OF 5 5pos n=4,300
OF 1 tutone Adj n=200
HC 2 tutone Adj n=800
OF 2 tutone Adj n=200
HC 4 5pos n=95
HC 4 tutone 5pos n=400—
OF 4 5pos n=800
OF 4 tutone 5pos n=1,200
OF 1 Adj n=400
HC 2 Adj n=600
OF 2 Adj n=750
OF 5 5pos n=1,110
16_SIZE_Hampens_23_j.doc (37 Kb, 350 downloads)
|IHC Life Member|
Robert, Nice job as usual.
I hope that with the addition of stars in your Price Guide for 16 size Hampdens that it will start to wake up collectors to an area of RR watches that has been overlooked. I was surprised by how scarce many of the 16 size 23j Hampdens are.
My source is the Hampden Watch Co Book and my own research.
Doing the 21 jewel watches is more time consuming as I am having some difficulty finding production runs for some of the watches. Either they are very scarce or never produced. Hopefully once I put up the list some others can help also.
PS CAN THE MODERATOR ALSO PUT THIS THREAD IN THE PRICE GUIDE SECTION ALSO
IHC Life Member
Bob, I have added this thread to the "help update guide" forum.
Can you give me a brief description as to how you used the Hampden Watch Book to conclude how many blocked serial numbers where set aside for each movement?
What is the margin for error in something like this?
I for one really appreciate all of your hard work and endless hours of research on the Hampden Watch Co. I find this kind of research very interesting. So what I'm really looking for is some suggestion and tips in case I deside to take on a similiar project myself in the future. I would like a break down of the A+B=C
The first question that needs to be answered is how I planned to use the data. My purpose is to get a feel of which grades were probably produced in fewer numbers. I am less concerned if 100 or 500 were produced .Rather I wanted to know on a relative basis which grades probably had lower production.The blocked serial numbers are a good surogate.
My intent is not to claim the numbers in my tables are actual production numbers nor to indicate how many may have survived.
In many instances I think the number actually produced is lower than the blocked serial number especially for some of the higher grade (more expensive) watches which became hard to sell.For example Elgin blocked 6,000 serial numbers for the CH Hulbard presentation watch. My best guess is that only a few hundred were produced.
HOW I CALCULATED BLOCKED SERIAL NUMBERS
Using the Hampden Watch Co book I located each production run shown in the Hampden Watch Co.Book and tried to estimate how many blocked serial numbers exist. This is more guestimation than science.
For 12 size watches I also checked the serial numbers in my collection.In some instances I had a 12 size watch from an unreported run OR one that extended a run. The additional information was used to shape my estimates.
I hope I have answered your question.
Thank you for the additional information. I realize these kind of things are never an exact science, but I believe your hard work does provide an excellent foundation towards a accurate hypothosis on how many or few watches were product by Hampden.
The reason I tend to focus on relative scarcity rather than actual numbers is that determining actual numbers is very difficult especially for a company such as Hampden.
1) Hampden is less popular. Thus knowledge is less likely to have been shared.
2) No factory records are available.
3) 16 size watches are over represented in the Hampden Watch Co book because that is the most popular size.
3) Rarer grades are over represented ie you might see 3 or 4 serial numbers for a rare grade with 400 blocked numbers and only 3 or 4 serial numbers for a low grade watch with several thousand blocked numbers.
4) For some grades not all of the blocked numbers were used.
For example ,the 16 size grade 104 SR Hunter appears to have 400 blocked serial numbers yet their are only 7 known examples--I own two of them.
Because Hampdens popularity was declining ,hunters were becoming less popular and the 104 was relatively expensive it is hypothesized that 100 or less were actually sold.
For all of the above reasons we will never truly have precise numbers. On the other hand I do think we are starting to finally get a more accurate understanding about which Hampdens are scarce--and its not the Chronometer grade adjusted to 3 positions which seems to go for high prices .
Many of the high grade Hampdens are of higher quality than many collectors give them credit for.
|IHC Life Member|
I totally agree with you. I picked up this watch at the Cleveland National last year for $500. The same quality 23J watch in Hamilton or Illinois would be many times that. This is one of the Grade 104 SR in flag varieties, S# 1899606 for your database.
What model(s) would you suggest to look out for as a first Hampden for a collection?
My real love is 12 size Hampdens . Among 12 size I would go for the Model 6 watches ( Paul Revere,Minute Man ) 21j Ohioan,21j grades 312 and 314 and the Model 3 and 4 John Hancocks.
Among 16 and 18 size railroad watches I think most of the 23j and 21j would be a welcome addition to any ones collection.
Thanks for the info. Like you I am also a 12s collector, especially Elgin and Illinois.
My latest acquistion.
This is a 16 size Hampden #1091905,23j Adjusted, Grade 104 SR Tu tone ,Model 2--raised plate.Only one run of 200 is known.The pattern on the plates was previously unknown To date 8 are known.
Think what this watch would go for if it was a Hamilton or Illinois--I paid $677 for this Hampden.
Raised plate 23-Jewel Special Railway is rare and desirable.
If it were a comparable Hamilton or Illinois take that number by anywhere from three to seven.
What do others say?
Below is another rare Hampden addition to my collection for under $400.
This is a very high quality watch that is under appreciated. When will the RR crowd
start to give these watches the respect they deserve?
The watch is a 16 size ,lever set, 23j ,grade 104 SR, Model 2, Hunter, Tu Tone.Less than 800 blocked serial numbers were reserved for this Grade.
I found out from Bob Arnold that the OF 23j Hampden with a raised plate that I posted on the 23rd in this section has a tutone pattern that he has not seen before on this watch.
An excellent foray into Hampden production. Many
people do not appreciate these watches. But, you've shown a good reason to.
Thanks for a fine job of research.
Here is another rare 23 jewel Hampden hunter that
cost less than a Bunn Special.
Specifically this is a 16 size 23j Grade 104 Hunter #2075468 4th Model Lever Set adjusted to 5 positions.
Less than 800 serial numbers were reserved for this Grade. I paid $460 for this watch.
The difference between this watch and the other
104 Hunter I posted below is that this watch is NOT tu tone nor does it have a flag with SR (Special Railway) in it--a very interesting variant.
Here is the other Grade 104 SR Hunter #1,795,088 I acquired. It is Tu tone with SR(Special Railway) in the flag. Estimated number of reserved serial numbers is around 400.
|IHC Life Member|
Is this the scarcest of them all?
The watch you showed above from Ebay is in the same run of Grade 104 SR raised plate I showed in an earlier post--estimated reserved serial numbers 200.There are some even scarcer such as the Grade 94 and a Gr 104 SR HC 5pos (non tutone)
Below is another rare Hampden. A 23j Grade 105 NR OF Model 1 # 1,092,032 raised plate Hampden with somewhere between 200 and 400 blocked serial numbers.
I paid $437 for it. You can barely get a have way decent Bunn Special with production of 70K for the price I paid.
Dial of Grade 105 NR (New Railway) ONL Model 1
Another scarce Hampden--Gr105 NR HN2L adj # 1,043,286
Estimated number of blocked serial numbers 600.
I paid $550 for this Gr105 NR HN2L
Movement and case...The micro regulator is missing.
Does anyone have one they would be willing to sell?
Here is another rare 16 size 23j Hampden I picked up for $687--Grade 104 RRG Model 4 OF lever set adjusted to 5 positions #2,801,011.
I think I paid a little more than usual for this watch due to the Montgomery dial.
The estimated number of blocked serial numbers is between 500 to 600.
Here is the dial
What a very nice watch!!!
Here is a 16s, 23j, grade 104 in a Railway Primus case. One of my favorites.
A lot of nice Hampdens out there!!!
Let's keep accurate information coming in!!
Thanks group for sharing!
You have a wonderful watch. Primus cases are expectionally rare.
Below is another little Hampden castoff I picked up today--
Grade 104 SR Model OF Model 4 Tutone Adjusted to 5 positions Lever set #1,795,871. About 1,000 serial numbers were reserved for this Grade.
I paid $432.
a magnificient Dueber GF case
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