I recently came across an american made pocket watch with an unsigned dial. Seems a bit odd. All of my american made pocket watches have a manufacture name on the dial, except for my first pocket watch (Swiss or French). I do have other foreign made pocket watches with respective names on dials as well!

Were american made dials all signed with manufacture names or were there generic, unsigned dials made to fit american movements? Could the watch in question possibly be a mix match?

I am aware of discussions on the number of feet on a dial in determining what manufacturer movement dial would be attached to. Many of us cannot readily or even remotely remove a dial from movemnt in making a determination that way.

My question is .. were all dials signed for american made movements?

Seguy - did American Waltham, Elgin etc. etc. make their own dials, and, were they put on at their factory?

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

I know that Waltham was making their own dials, at least by 1884, and I imagine that the other big companies also had their own dial department. Occassionally they may have had special dials made for them by someone else (such as the O'Hara Waltham Dial Co.). On later dress watches, some of the fancy metal dials were made elsewhere.

As for names on dials, most American dials will have a company or private label name on them. Exceptions that come to mind are some early Waltham and Elgin keywinds which had unsigned dials and some 12-size metal dials for Illinois thin-model watches around 1920.

Perhaps others can add to this.

A few other unsigned dials that come to mind are early 18 size Illinois single-sunk (found usually on the more modest grade ... Columbia, IWCo., etc.), 18 and 16 size Illinois unsigned double-sunk (I recall most of these being on private-labels and I will try to post a photo of an 18 size later this evening), and 16 size Hamilton double-sunk (most of these I have seen have been on the Hayden W. Wheeler grades).

Fred

Stephanie, Many of the lower grade early Waltham grades, ie Home Watch Co, Wm Ellery, Broadway, etc. have the unmarked/generic dials. I have three Broadway grades--a model 57, a model 77, and a model 83. My model 57 & 77 have the generic dials, my model 83 has the the marked AW Co dial. I also have several Illinois with the generic dials. One is the Columbia as stated above and the others are Ill watch Co marked. I ah

have seen some early Elgins with the unmarked dials. This appears to be a phenomena from the early period of watchmaking.

Tom

Believe it or not, early 18s Waltham and Elgin dials will interchange; they have the same foot pattern, spacing, etc., and the early examples were not marked with the company names.

Fancy Swiss dials to fit any American watch were once available through most material suppliers. Those dials typically looked similar to American made O'Hara dials, and sold for prices ranging from $0.50 to as much as $12 or $15, depending on time and complication of design. (See: Benj. Allen & Co. 1900 "Illustrated Price List of Watch Materials, Tools, and Jewelers' Supplies," page 257; and Otto Young & Co. 1892 "Tool and Material Catalog," pages 244 - 250; both available in reprint.)

"Imitation American" dials were once available for Waltham and Elgin watches, if not others. Those were either flat ($0.50), or single sunk ($0.75), and were marked with the appropriate markings for the company. (See: Otto Young & Co. 1892 "Tool and Material Catalog," page 361.)

Finally, I've seen a number of American dials whose names had been intentionally removed. In some instances, I know that was done to avoid interfering with a photographic image added to the dial, but in other instances, I have no idea why it was done. As a particular case in point, more than half the 19j Ingersoll Trentons I've seen have had double-sunk dials, with the company name removed. I have no why that is.

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Steve Maddox
Past President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

Jerry and Fred, thanks for your input!

Tom H.,
Thanks as well.

Steve,
Interesting info you provided. Thanks!

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

Would the same information apply regarding fancy unsigned dials on american movements? Have you seen a fair amount of fancy unsigned dials on early or late american movements? Is this a common phenomena as well? Would this have occurred with the same manufacturers you listed?

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

Steph, I have a 16S unmarked fancy dial that fits a 16S model 99 Waltham. It is not marked Swiss on the back. And a response to Steve--now that I think back, I have seen several Trentons with a generic dial. To my recall, they were 15J movements.

Tom

My 19j Trenton looks as though the dial was once signed, but after the three different sections were joined, the company name was apparently polished away with diamond powder. It's possible to still see the outline of the name when light is reflected off the surface, and the edges of the perimeter section show rounding from where they've been polished in that area. It would be easy to guess that my dial might have been modified for a picture applied to it at some time, but I've seen two other 19j Trentons with exactly the same dial, and I can't figure it out.

As for various "fancy" dials, I suspect that a lot of the ones we see today are actually Swiss, and were not originally part of the watches on which they now reside. As a testament to that, a lot of them have "Swiss" printed on the back, but then, so do many original dials for American watches.

I can't remember where it was (perhaps in Crossman's book), but not too long ago, I recall reading an account from one of the early American watch companies -- and I think it was the American Watch Company at Waltham. The account said that for years, the banks of the river beside the plant resembled a china factory, where countless thousands of imperfect dials had been discarded there over the years, particularly as they were attempting to perfect their dial making process.

In the image at the following link, a number of the dials pictured are definitely Swiss, and a few are almost certainly American. The ones I feel certain are American are A, C, L, and M. The ones I'm sure are Swiss are: F, G, and H; the rest, I'm not sure.

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I have a mint 18S Hamilton Ball dial with nothing except the numbers to tell the time. I bought it several years ago from Roy Earhardt, as most of us know he did a lot of adding pictures of trains on his dials, and I imagine he may now be old enough to be able to order those kinds of dials at the end, with no logo's. I have a lot of fine with mine, its on a beautiful 21J, 18s, Hamilton Ball in a swing out case and at regionals and other conventions I carry that watch and people are always trying to figure out what's inside, they never do. I like those mysterious dials, most of the time they were short stopped in production and had a jewelers name or company on them, as Webb C. was always wheeling and dealing?? Who could keep track, or keep production schedules correct, which is why every now and then a watch with pendant set shows up out of a run of lever sets.
Regards, Jack/G

Jack Goldstein
NAWCC 0152932
IHC 185 #274
http://www.ball-rr-pocketwatches.com

Tom H.,
Regarding your 16S unmarked fancy dial fitting a 16s model 99 Waltham, do you mean an 1899 model Waltham? I could not find a model 99 in Shugart but rather 1899.

Secondly, do you think the dial is original to the movement and made by Waltham?

Steve,
So in essence, Swiss manufactured unsigned fancy dials to fit American movements but may not be original to the watch.

Thanks for the link you provided. I remember looking at this link in the past! I noticed that the unsigned Swiss fancy dials are not attached to movements. With regard to the swiss dials that are attached to movements, are the movements swiss?

Jack G.,
I'd like to know more about Roy Eberhardt adding pictures of trains to dials.
Your 18s Hamilton/Ball sounds interesting. For people to have seen it to comment, you must have been continually popping the watch in and out of your pocket at the show huh? or maybe showing people who passed you by?
Personally, I would rather know what manufacturer made the dial and what it originally belongs on!

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

Hi Steph, For the Waltham 99, that is shorthand for model 1899. You will see people refer to Waltham models as 77, 79, 83, 99, etc. Just put the right century in front of it.

The fancy dial was obtained when I bought a box of dials. As it had no name on it, I checked the book for the dial feet positions, then tried it on a model 99 and it fit. I do not believe that it is a Waltham product, but believe that it is an aftermarket choice for a customer. Aftermarket dealers do the same thing today for Rolex dials. So, one could expect that these would have been available 100 years ago.

Tom

Stephanie writes:"Swiss manufactured unsigned fancy dials to fit American movements ..... may not be original to the watch?"

Right.....

"I noticed that the unsigned Swiss fancy dials [in the image above] are not attached to movements."

Right again..... Those are just loose dials I've acquired over the years, and I've never applied them to any kind of movement. In fact, at least a few of them have never been applied to a movement at all.

"With regard to the Swiss dials that are attached to movements [in the image above], are the movements Swiss?"

Yes..... That's what I meant by the notation: "Swiss."

For what it's worth, the fact that a dial is Swiss made, and not an "original equipment" part of an American watch, doesn't necessarily make it less desirable. As far as I know, ALL "Ferguson" dials were Swiss made, as were all Dudley dials, and quite a few others.

To me, it's important that pocket watch dials are contemporary to their movements, but as long as they're not modern reproductions, I don't think their place of origin makes much difference in most instances.

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SM

Tom H,
Thanks

Steve,
Interesting that Ferguson and Dudley dials are Swiss made. Thanks again for your input!

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

This is the dial on a 1889 Hampden Railway watch I just serviced. I would like comments on the value of the dial. And the value of the complete watch, for my friend (who outbid me for this sereral months ago. Mike

Swiss or Hampden?

Movement !

Mike,

In my opinion, the dial on the watch in your images above is probably a Swiss "aftermarket" dial, and not an original Hampden product. Again, as I indicated above, that wouldn't necessarily detract a lot from its value in my opinion, but the fact that it has several obvious hairline cracks certainly does.

I'd say that if the dial was in perfect condition, its value should be something between $100 and $200. As is, however, I'd say its value is probably more in the range of $50 to $100. As I'm sure you know, the Hampden "Railway" movement to which its attached is a very common model, and unless its case is really nice, I'd be surprised if the complete watch would bring a price in excess of $250.

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In other "news," .........

Charles S. Crossman, "A Complete History of Watch and Clock Making in America," Page 9, "The Boston Watch Co." (Waltham), lower right column:

"The first dials were made by John Todd, a Scotch dial maker, but his dials proved unsatisfactory, as they would very often crack at the feet. They engaged Mr. John T. Gold, then but a mere youth, who had learned the trade from his father, who was then making dials in New York City. He was not able, however, to make dials that were satisfactory, and they concluded to send him to Liverpool, in 1853, at their own expense, to learn, if possible, this trade. He remained there ten months and was able to make dials for the company after he returned. He also brought with him two recipes for making enamel, which Mr. Howard immediately set about experimenting with. He was, however, unable to make an enamel that acid would not touch, which it was necessary to use in order to cut out the seconds bits. Mr. Howard continued to experiment untiringly, until finally he was able to make an enamel that was fairly satisfactory. Even after Tracy, Baker & Co. became owners of the plant, in 1857, it was remarked that the banks of the river near the factory in Waltham had the appearance of a china shop, as so much enamel had been thrown out as refuse."

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Steve Maddox
Past President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49