Has anyone ever figured out which case company(s) South Bend had make their factory-marked cases? Also, were there any South Bend silveroid, nickel, or base metal cases made? I've never seen one,but since South Bend had excellent quality watches in all price ranges, it seems like they should have.Thanks!, Ted.
Posts: 1323 | Location: Lebanon, Connecticut USA | Registered: March 28, 2008
Yes there are South Bend marked cases in all different materials (gold filled, silveriod and base metal). I have held a solid gold marked South Bend case also. They do come in all the different sizes (the small O size, 12 size, 16 size and 18 size). I have note seen a marked 6 size case but that does not mean they are not out there. Regards, Keith
Posts: 856 | Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
This is a question that plagues serious South-Bend collectors, we know they did not make their own cases but instead had them specially produced by the various case making companies. Interestingly, all the South-Bend 12-size movements were factory cased and the majority in cases without South-Bend markings.
I have a South-Bend Polaris in a Solid-Gold case with the anticipated "South-Bend Watch Company, South Bend Indiana" on the cuvette but also has a "dog-bone" shaped marking which is the Trade-Mark of Brooklyn Watch Case Company on the inside surface. The fact there is minimal wear and correctly matching numbers on all the case components would in my opinion be undeniable proof of manufacturer on this one particular case.
We find do clues on others, my impression is that both Dueber and Wadsworth made some of their cases as well as Brooklyn like I mentioned above. Oddly there is no consistency between even some of those that have similar engraving on the case-back and the very same South-Bend markings inside.
Unfortunately, there are no remaining factory records so we are left to our discoveries and comparisons with other cases, the more cases I examine the more confusing they become.
Like Keith, I too have not seen South-Bend markings on a 6-size case and doubt that we ever will. Remember, all the South-Bend 6-size movements were produced in Columbus and distributed during the 1902-1903 period which was several years before S-B marked cases first appeared.
Interesting topic, let's see what others have to say!
Lindell
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
About the 12s cases, or more specifically the Panama brand. Most or all of the Panama branded cases were 20yr/GF cases and almost all were for the 12size watches. There are documented "Panama" cases that are 16s but I have never seen or heard of an 18s.
All of the cases made for the Panama brand were made with the agreement of South Bend by Wadsworth and Fahys.*
To ADONYA Well, learn something new every year. As Adonya said, he has an 18s Panama. If you read this, is there a SB movement in the case or something else? And what is the serial number of the case. I would be most interested in that.
To TED That is interesting. I would guess it's an earlier 227 (before 1920 at least) if the pairing is original. I would love to see a picture of the watch and find out the SN#'s of the watch and the case.
Hi Frank, I just noticed your post, would have answered earlier....I can't post a picture of my 227, but the movement is SN 745941, and the Panama case is #9802686.It has no other case screw marks.It's a plain polish SB&B French-bow case, has a "can't come off" bow.I've owned it for nearly 30 yrs., and have worn the bow out!But it's still a nice case, shows no brass.This must have been in RR service, has a ton of jeweler marks in the case back.I forgot to mention, this 227 has the circular "double roller" marking, and is marked "safety pinion".I know the later ones have the D.R. marking on the balance cock, and no safety pinion marking at all.This one is one of my favorites, keeps RR time. Regards, Ted.
Posts: 1323 | Location: Lebanon, Connecticut USA | Registered: March 28, 2008
Ted - Does your watch have a Montgomery dial on it? Because that is what it probably started out with.
Keith - I didn't recall ever seeing one, but then I checked the database and have one that was seen in Mar'06. It was case "SB Pilgrim HC 8790967" and it was on a Grade 212 sn.768238. Good find! You sure do come up with a lot of rare items. :-D
Ah yes, about be saying I hadn't seen an 18s Panama. Now I have, and a Silverode case. Didn't Philadelphia make Silverode? So that one would really be from Philly.
Frank, My 227 does have the original DS Montgomery deal, well to me it's a Montgomery, butit doesn't have the "6" in the seconds bit.It has the "South Bend" in capital letters, not the script type.Has a hairline or two, but still a nice dial.I've seen several SB MRR dials like mine without the 6.Best regards, Ted.
Posts: 1323 | Location: Lebanon, Connecticut USA | Registered: March 28, 2008
Ted, that's exactly the one. The block letters started to show up about the same time the 323, 329, 223 and 229 came out, or around 1909. The original font is cursive based and has a kind of swooshy (like "it swooshed by") look. In fact, it's close to looking just like some of the script fonts used for the Studebaker ads. Oh my gosh! for six years they were using a dial that had a logo on it that looked almost the same as the one on their popular car. Why would they do that? Right.
Anyhoo, it looks the block lettering replaces all the cursive fonts except for... yeah, the dials on the "The Studebakers".
Oh, also, if you post something today I'll wait a week or two before answering. I don't want any of the moderators to think that we're spamming a thread. :-D
Frank, I don't know if you have a copy of Ehrhardt's " Beginning to End" pocket watch book, but on pg.400, there's a 1932 ad for railroad watches.They show a 227 (same dial as mine), cased in a rigid-bow J. Boss RR case.Some one must have been casing up and selling S.B. movements long after the factory closed in '30.I thought that was interesting.It doesn't state what dealer this was.Thank you!, Ted.
Posts: 1323 | Location: Lebanon, Connecticut USA | Registered: March 28, 2008
Ted - Thanks very much for that tip. I had never noticed that ad on pg. 400. I've keenly read the page right before it (399) but apparently never flipped the page or noticed what was on it. The big thing is the "1932 ADVERTISEMENT" up on top of the page, which you caught but I never did.
It is very strange. I've seen a lot of these watches and I'm fairly certain that this was not a standard case for SB to use. I'm also fairly certain that most (most, not all) SB watches, especially after about 1914-1917 (somewhere in there), where cased and timed from the factory. For whoever was selling to be using porcelain dials is also problematic to explain. I would guess that they had a small amount (a few hundred at the very most) of these watches, dials and case combinations that they could make. If they had had a thousand of them, and selling them at this later date (closer to the 1930's and beyond many more watches show up) I would guess that I would have seen and tracked at least a dozen or so. Then again, I may be surprised and find a dozen like this in the next year!
Anyways, I'm just conjecturing here, but it's an interesting string that is there on that page. Thanks for the tip Ted!
You're welcome Frank, for once at least I was able to be of help!I think that case and dial combination makes a pretty sharp looking RR, doesn't it?Another thing about that case, I've seen that exact style rigid bow case advertised, but made by Fahys.I wonder if there was a connection between these two case companies.Thank you, Ted.
Posts: 1323 | Location: Lebanon, Connecticut USA | Registered: March 28, 2008
I saw another 212 on ebay one time with the paper in the back. Unfortunately the case was either worn thru or about ready to, so to me a paper with that condition of a case does not add a whole lot of value for me to put away in the collection. both 212's were fromt he same time period within about a year of eachother and both were in SB hunting cases. I'm not sure if it was something they did on all cases and a lot were thrown away or if they just did it for a brief period.
Thanks,
Jared
Posts: 1626 | Location: North Dakota in the USA | Registered: December 09, 2009
Jared, I think those case papers are pretty cool, like you said many got thrown away back in those days.I don't imagine anyone cared enough about them to try and keep them with the watch they came in.It's rare to see such a mint looking case with the paper still in it.One of my Hampdens has its original Dueber case paper in the back, it's the only one I have.Many of them I think were used by jewelers for advertising, they make a nice collection!Thanks again, Ted.
Posts: 1323 | Location: Lebanon, Connecticut USA | Registered: March 28, 2008
