The balance wheel in the image below is from a customer's 23j Illinois Bunn Special. According to the customer, two separate watchmakers recently serviced the watch, neither of which was successful in making it keep time.

Just out of curiosity, I'd appreciate it if the readers here would reply to this topic and mention whether or not they see anything wrong.



===========================

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

...good morning Steve...hope your recent 'puter troubles are on the mend...w/regard to the balance, let a watch newbie take a crack at it and state the obvious that the meantime screws are not
in their 'polar' positions for one and there is an imbalance of balance screws for another...wonder how this balance could ever have been poised...Regards!...Jim

At a glance Steve I'd guess it doesn't time in positions. A tribute to the folks who dunk'em
in the ultra sonics & wash out the finish.
[the test for ultra sonics is to run a piece
of aluminum foil, if it comes out with pinholes
the unit is working] Looks like you've hit a nerve
with me! It's obvious this balance has a screw
missing,another moved & nobody tried static
poising.
George.

Watchmakers???
Brian C.

pwpartsetc@webtv.net

Steve,

Looks to me as though someone might have tried to shellac the roller jewel without removing the roller table, and possibly the hairspring. The balance arms appear to have a bluish tint to them. I wonder what that might have done to the hairspring. This, aside from the other points already mentioned.

Doug S.

wow, it looks like they used every combination of metals and sizes of ballance screws along with a few washers to boot, (along with the improper distribution). Also, is that a single roller underneath there? Should be a double roller.

so give us the verdict doc... will she run again?

Mike Miller
NAWCC Member# 154831
NAWCC-IHC Charter Member# 27

Those who guessed that the positional rates weren't very good, are quite correct. The variation is a little more than +/- 30 minutes per day, depending on position!

The steel parts of the balance wheel are not actually blue, although they do appear that way in the image. It's just "glare," caused by the light from my scanner. I haven't yet invested in a digital camera, so scanner "photography" is the best I can offer.

In addition to the really "curious" positions of the balance screws, at least two of them are actually held in place with super-glue! The balance now has 17 screws, 9 of which are original gold screws (most are mutilated), and 8 of which are brass "replacements."

In the process of mutilating the numerous screw heads, someone has nicked the rim in several places, but I think it'll be OK. I'll get the watch back in order again, but it'll be a lot easier if anyone here happens to have a plethora of extra gold Illinois balance screws (or a ruined wheel I can "borrow" some from)!

For what it's worth, I don't know any of the previous people who worked on this watch, but I'm told that one of them is watchmaking instructor. Needless to say, that must be a heck of a class!

===================

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

Steve...I've done a little watch work over the years but not enough to tell one companies balance wheels from the next...

Are you able to identify any of these wheels? You are welcome to anything here.



I have hundreds of parts and hardly ever the one I need.

Geo
NAWCC #78594
Local Chapter #76

I've never seen so many loose balance wheels and screws in my life!

As I'm sure you know, loose balance wheels can be very difficult to conclusively identify, especially if they don't have the hairspring attached. Obviously, a typical high-grade Illinois balance looks like the one in my image above. The spoke arms are somewhat elliptical in shape, without any flare at the ends that attach to the rim. If the hairspring is present, it should have a "D" shaped stud. The screws should be polished pink gold (in high-grade models), and their heads should be flat on top, rather than arched or domed.

In order to help identify other loose balances, the following are some rules of thumb that will sometimes help:

Elgin balance wheels typically have elliptical shaped spokes, which flare out at the ends that attach to the rim, and most Elgin hairsprings have studs that are shaped like a piece of pie. Elgin balance screws are usually (though not always) arched or domed on the top.

Waltham balance wheels typically have balance spokes with parallel sides, which flare at the ends and in the center. Their hairspring studs are usually either round or triangular in shape. Only Waltham or Elgin balance wheels will have serial numbers in the double-digit million range.

Hamilton balance wheels look similar to Waltham wheels, except that they often have a hole drilled through the balance spokes at each end near the rim. Hamilton hairsprings typically have studs that are "collar-button" shaped, although later models have pentagon shaped studs. Their balance screws are usually flat on top, and in double-roller models, the primary roller table is often "clipped" on the sides, so that its outline looks like the side view of a double-bit ax.

Rockford, Hampden, South-Bend, New York Standard, Columbus, Seth Thomas, E. Howard, and several others have balance wheels that look a great deal like the Illinois above. Some 18s Rockfords have hairspring studs that are almost crescent shaped, and many E. Howard Watch Co. products have square hairspring studs, but those are the only two really "radical" ones that come to mind at the moment.

In any event, your offer of assistance is greatly appreciated, but I can't tell enough about any of the parts in the image to make any sort of conclusive identification. Even if I could, I'd imagine you might trouble now picking out a particular part after the boxes have been "re-shuffled."

Some balance screws from different brands will interchange, while others won't, but off the top of my head, I can't remember which are which. If you have any loose pink gold screws, or any loose balances with pink gold screws in the rim, there's a chance that some of them might work. If you'd be willing to pick out the stuff that meets that description and mail it to me, I'd be more than happy to cover the postage both ways, and to return the favor anytime I can assist you with something!

At very least, I sincerely do appreciate your effort!

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

...I for one am going to print the above (have and SM's ID'ing PW Balances dissertation prints out conveniently as Pg5), punch it and put in my 'Horology Bible' under the 'Lesson According to SM'...thanks Steve!...Jim C

Steve.....Thanks for information. I went through the pile and found 7 that "sort-of" have elliptical shaped spokes...



And 8 that have pink gold screws....



If you think these might help just email me your address and I will send to you.

Geo
NAWCC #78594
Local Chapter #76

I've made a couple of sketches to accompany your images above, which hopefully will help identify a few of the wheels:



A - (?)
B - Swiss
C - (?)
D - 16s Waltham
E - 16s Waltham
F - 18s Columbus (not certain)
G - 18s Waltham (not certain)
H - (?)
I - 16s Illinois (90% certain)
J - Swiss
K - 18s Waltham (not certain)
L - (?)
==============================================



A - Swiss
B - 18s Waltham (not certain)
C - (?)
D - (?)
E - 18s Columbus (not certain)
F - (?)
G - Swiss
H - 16s Waltham
I - 16s Waltham
J - (?)
K - 16s Illinois (not certain)
==============================================

I'm almost sure one of the wheels is for a 16s Illinois, and if it is, it probably has the screws in it I need. Of course, just by looking at the images, it's difficult to tell for certain, but if you wouldn't mind sending me an assortment (which won't cost anything additional to mail), I'll be more than happy to identify as many as I can for you. I'll e-mail you directly, and discuss the shipping details, etc.

Thanks much!

=====================

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

(Edited to correct error in image links -- SM)

[This message was edited by Steve Maddox on May 14, 2003 at 15:32.]

Steve....I will wrap them up and send to you tomorrow..One box will be these 15 and I'll send the others just in case I missed something. Pick out anything you need and return the rest.

We should start a "Junk Yard" system for all these parts if we could identiy all of them.
The story of where these all came from is pretty interesting..

Geo
NAWCC #78594
Local Chapter #76

I have a Bunn spl 18s that appears to have only 2 mean time screws, one each ajacent to where the arms are fixed to the wheel. I checked several other 18s Bunns and they look the same.

Is this standard for the Bunn spl 18s, all 18s, or do they vary from model to model. The 16s seem to have 4 mean time screws. Fried mentions 4 in the example in his book.

Charlie

Thanks to George's generous help, the project is now complete. The owner is planning to sell the watch and didn't want to invest more money having it cleaned and oiled (which it really needed), but even as is, the results are fairly good.

A total of 16 balance screws were replaced, and with the regulator set to the center of the index, the six position rates are now as follows:

Dial Up: - 6 sec/day
Dial Down: + 0 sec/day
12 Up: + 5 sec/day
3 Up: - 5 sec/day
6 Up: - 1 sec/day
9 Up: + 5 sec/day

Total Positional Error (TPE): 11 seconds/day
Average error in 6 positions: - 0.3 seconds/day

Not bad, especially for a watch that still needs to be serviced!

Thanks again for the help, George!

====================

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

Steve......I'm glad I was able to help.

Geo
NAWCC #78594
Local Chapter #76