A few months back I was told that one of my watches needed a balance complete. However, the watch kept accurate time before the diagnosis and after (+/- 1 minute) for at least 12+ days straight. I kept track of the time while I wore it and while off the wrist in various positions on my desk (the watch, not me ) - nothing interfered with it's function. It required winding only once every 18-20 hours or so. It set with ease and there was nothing to my knowledge to indicate it needed this service.

This recommendation came from a watchmaker who stated that he cleaned the watch yet did not sign the case or charge me for the cleaning.

What are the signs & symptoms of a watch needing balance complete?

Thanks

In this case, it sounds like you would have to look at the WATCHMAKER(?) to see the symptoms. Did he look hungry? Sort of shabbily dressed? His car in the repair shop? Kinda shifty eyed? Have a high-maintenance trophy wife? Sometimes you have to look at the watchmaker to figure out what's wrong with the watch. I think you just missed a couple hundred dollar ride.

...Barbara, seems to me as well that, in this case, you need a 'completely different watchmaker' not a 'completely different balance'...

Thanks, Robert & Jim.

I was thinking along those lines too since there was no clear evidence of malfunction with the watch. I've lost respect and trust for this fellow and have discontinued doing business with him. It's a shame.

Why on earth would someone claim to have cleaned the watch and not charge for it? Doing me a favor? Ha!

This is another reason why I feel the need to continue to come here to read, learn, vent & participate - I am willing to discuss and learn. I feel treated as an equal and it is much appreciated. $12/year IHC 185 membership dues is money well spent.

It's easy to be suspicious and your example does seems very suspicious.

But.... the simplist answer for needing a "balance complete" is that you need some balance work and a "balance complete" is available and cheap. (or cheaper than repair)

I work exclusively on RR pocket-watches and have only attempted wristwatch repair a couple times. With RR watches, the rarity and prohibitive prices of obtaining a "balance complete" usually dictates that we repair, rather than entirely replace a balance. This is NOT the way things were in the good ol' days and watch repairemen in those days had plentiful and cheap replacement parts. It's fair to say that the horological level of today is far beyond what it was years ago, and for good reason.

I have no idea what wristwatch you own or how it's working since it's service. Maybe the watchmaker broke a part of your balance. Repair of a wristwatch balance, I'd imagine, is more intricate than a pocket watch. Maybe, there is a potential problem and he has a balance-complete available for a very modest cost. The cost of the parts and the difficulty (and time) of repairing a balance will decide which route to take.

I think you have every right to be suspicious of this repair but.... you ought to keep an open mind as well. It may be that you have a potential problem that this watchmaker can easily and cheaply rectify. Knowledge and inquiry will tell.

One more thing.

If a watchmaker serviced one of my antique watches, today, and started carving stuff in my case.... I'd kill him.

That was the practice years ago but I don't want to see any such thing being done in a vintage watch today.

If your watch is vintage, I would attach no significance to the fact that he didn't "sign" the case.

Thanks Peter.

Many people who clean watches for me use a black felt pen - which looks atrocious in photos but can easily be removed with rubbing alcohol.

I have seen people scribe numbers on the movement when a watch was serviced, i hate this very much.
Personally i feel if the numbers are small on the case it,s not a problem to me, i don,t see it as damage to the watch, just my opinion.
Barbara i would say find another watch repair person, this guy takes advantage of people and does not appear honest to me.

Barbara,
I can only think of one reason your watchmaker cleaned and oiled your watch for free. I believe he should have made the repair and charged you for the c/o. I also don't think a watchmaker should scratch or mark the case in any way. I keep track of my work on paper, customer's name, watch make, serial number, date of work, and what I do to the watch.
Brian C.

I've only been collecting and repairing pocket watches for about 1.5 yrs. But.... I've had other collections and knew, at the beginning, that this one would require extensive organization. So, with my 2nd watch, I bought Brian Plexico's OmniFile, collector's software and customized it for watches.

Since then, I've recorded every watch, SN, seller, dates, prices and every note on repair or condition. It also records your photos and cross-references the whole lot to the watch itself.

I know exactly which dealers on ebay and the marts were less than honest in their dealing with me. I think I paid $15-20 for the software and it is the centerpiece of my collection.

Thanks Brian. I'm not sure I understand this:

quote:

I can only think of one reason your watchmaker cleaned and oiled your watch for free.

All joking aside,what did I miss? I might need to be a little more on guard and not so trusting in the future.

Peter, thanks for the software tip - where/how did you purchase it?

Sometimes a watchmaker will waive the charge of a cleaning if they think they'll have the watch back for major work, or at least they did many years ago in my hometown. The charge of the repair will more than recoup the cost of the cleaning in many cases. Regards! Mark

Thanks, Mark. That's a good point.

It's funny that you mention this. It's an excellent PR/marketing move to N/C the cleaning hoping for more business in the future.

However, he stated that if I brought the watch back for the balance work, he would charge out the full amount for the cleaning. If I kept the watch or sell it, he stated that he would only charge a portion of the cleaning fee. This was very confusing and I discussed this immediately with another member. Reluctantly, I came to the conclusion to stop doing business with the watchmaker. I gave the guy 100% trust. When he started in on this double-talk and bullship, it became evident to stop.

I'm still confused about the diagnosis though - can anyone answer . . .

Would a watch that needs this particular service still function as well as expressed in my opening statement?

Thanks!

Barbara,
I didn't read your post right. I thought he gave you back the watch not running. I don't know why he said you need a balance.
Brian C.

Personally, I'd say 'no'. A complete replacement says to me that the one in the watch is shot, and therefore non-functional. From your description, you have it 180 degrees in the other direction.

He'd charge full price for the cleaning if you get it fixed, but if you sell/trade it, he'll charge you half? Uh, I'm confused too!

Regards! Mark

I have 2 years of watch buying and selling under my belt - not a tremendous amount but more than 0. The most important thing to use when doing business is intuition. The more I tried to reason with this fellow the more I choked on that intuition.

On a parallel note, I went to the car repair shop with the windshield wiper stuck in the up position - it would not budge & drove me nuts. The car is a luxury import that takes premium gas. I was mentally prepared to pay for a new wiper motor. The mechanic could have soaked me for BIG bucks but told me that it was just a fuse. I even had an extra one under the hood. He made zilch, zip, zero that day from me but continues to earn my trust, respect, referrals and repeat business. When he makes recommendations, I generally do them.

That's the kind of person I want to do business with.

Barbara,
Just saw this thread, and thought I’d take a stab at answering your original question. For me the symptom of a watch needing a balance is that it won’t run. Most of the watches I buy are usually in poor condition. At this point in my collecting, I want to learn on the cheaper stuff, that way with I mess up, I don’t feel so bad. Occasionally, when I fix something nice, I get a real charge out of the accomplishment.

The most common problem I encounter on the flea market watches I run across is broken staffs. Here is what I typically find, an old watch not running, the mainspring is wound up tight, and it won’t tick a second even if shaken a little. When I open the case, assuming I don’t see a movement welded into one piece from rust, I usually see a balance wheel that is loose. If you touch the balance wheel on the perimeter with a pointer it will wiggle around a lot. Sure sign one of the pivots is busted. If the movement is in good shape, and I don’t see any broken jewels, I’ll consider buying it. Assuming of course its dirt cheap. If the balance wheel is firm to the touch, and won’t move up or down, but will move in it’s normal plane, it probably just needs cleaning.

Now, fixing said dirt cheap watch is the tricky part. My preference is to replace the ‘balance complete’, or as I would prefer to say it, the complete balance assembly. Sometimes, if you are real lucky, you can find a new balance assembly with the staff, hairspring, and wheel assembled. If its new old stock (NOS) it’s probably timed and poised to boot. Just drop it in and you’re done. Nice. I was able to do that once on a Hamilton with some NOS from Dashto. After assembly in the watch it ran perfectly even after the balance had been sealed in a tin since 1952. More typically, I can only find the staff and consequently have to do a lot more work.

So that’s my answer. The watch won’t run if it needs a balance: complete, partial, or any part thereof. I agree with everyone else on this topic, find another watch maker. I hope this helps.

Thanks for your input, Jon.

quote:

For me the symptom of a watch needing a balance is that it won’t run.

Precisely. And this watch was running and keeping accurate time. There were no symptoms and the recommendation did not make sense.

It's sad but when I lost trust in this individual, doing business with him was no longer an option.

It wasn't just the balance issue - he was given watches that were already COA'd within the last few months - he "redid" cleanings & charged me on almost every watch he was sent. This increased my cost and took from my profit. Additionally, he insisted they all needed new mainsprings, crowns and stems. I was charged for that too. These watches may have only needed new hands, different hands, a different crown or a new crystal in my humble, untrained, newbie opinion. I knew what I could get for the watches and to dump more money into them was poor advice from him. Some were only worth the investment of cleaning only, a new crystal only, etc. It was short term gain but long term loss for him.

I sell watches and there is almost always room for the next guy after me to make a little profit. This is acceptable to me since I have a good source, have a high turnover and plently of repeat customers.

When a watchmaker bad mouths someone's work, that is something to pay attention to. That combined with other indications plus my intuition led me to stop doing business with him. I felt like a cash cow, only I was very fortunate to have found out sooner (3 months) rather than later. For that, I am grateful.

Barb

Barbara -

Some watch repair people automatically change out the mainspring - it's the way they were trained. I personally only change them when they appear to need it, but I've know perfectly honest repairmen who'll insist thatthey can't possibly return the watch without a new mainspring, crown, and stem because if they do the parts are liable to fail, and then they get to replace them at no charge when the customer complains.

They have a point. It all depends on what you think the watch repair consists of. Many repair people are trained to return the watch in as close to new condition as possible (the high price Swiss manufacturers are really into this type of treatment at the moment).

Mr. Beeman:
I think replacing the balance complete when all it needs is a staff is just wasteful. Learn to put a staff in properly so you can save the complete balance assemblies for watches that really need them. Remember that on some watches (notably pocket watches) the original balance has the movement serial number scratched on the underside of the arms. When you replace it with a complete balance assembly, you also remove the orignal balance, leaving one less original (though repaired) watch in the world. It won't matter much on most watches, but eventually you're going to do this to something with historical importance, and then how will you feel?

Mr. Mintz,
Your point is well taken about historical watches, much better to keep them as original as possible. However, at this point in my development, replacing the staff alone is decidedly more risky. A replaced balance assembly can still be used on another watch. A bent up, and broken balance wheel is truly a waste. I have been lucky enough to acquire several nice old timepieces. Their restoration is awaiting the development of a higher level of skill on my part. For now, I am focusing on timepieces that are numerous, not highly collectable, but still fun to own and repair. But I will take your advice and work on learning to put a staff in properly.
Best regards, Jon