Hello,
I am working on a 12s Waltham model 1894, open face, dating from the 1920s. I have replaced the mainspring, straightened the bent 4th wheel pivot (the one that bears the seconds hand), and cleaned and oiled it. Now the movement runs fine until I close the back cover. Then I can hear an irregularity in the ticks (I don't have a timing or diagnostic machine). This irregularity seems to occur at a regular interval ( ), but the escape wheel teeth look good to me (I will have to recheck them, plus the pinion). Since the watch seems to run fine until I close the back cover, I don't think it is a problem with the teeth (but I certainly might be wrong).
Question: Is there a common cause of such a problem? What should I look for or try? Does anyone know if there is a thread on this topic already?
I have tried several permutations of assembly (i.e., with the dial, without the dial, with the bezel plus dial, etc.). Now I have the movement in the case, with hands, but no dial or bezel, and the irregularity is present when I close the back cover.
Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
Pete Belmonte

This may sound odd, but what's the case made of?

If it's gold filled, I'd be betting that the case gets distorted enough when the back is closed to cause something to flex the plates of the movement, causing the problem. Or, possibly the case is a bit thinner than the movement requires. Or the back has a bend in it, so that the back touches the movement when it's closed.

However, if it's a steel case, or has some steel components, I'd be guessing magnetism. You could try degaussing the case (it's certainly simple enough).

Peter,
Are there any circular scratches on the inside case back? Sounds like the back is touching the winding wheels or the case screws when it is closed.

Harvey and Kenny,
Thanks for the quick replies. The case is gold-filled, with no dents in the back, nor any scratches on the inside case back. I originally thought the case might be too thin, but I'm not convinced of that. I will examine the inside, especially near the case screws, more closely when I get home (where the watch is merrily ticking away, I hope, with an open case back). In the meantime I am anxious to hear any other ideas. Thanks,
Pete Belmonte

Just a thought, but could the cover be pushing down on the balance cock and intermitently stopping or slowing down the balance wheel.
I may be way out here just a thought i had.

Peter, Try it in another 12S case and see if the problem persists. Then you can narrow it down to that particular case. Also, check the tightness of the case screws in your case. If they are torqued down really tight, it may be causing the problem. Try loosening them just a little then reclose the case and see what happens.

Tom

Is it a screw back or hinged back case? If hinged back, a bad hinge could be a problem. One thing to do would be to close the case without a movement in it and observe from the front of the case any changes of flexing of the frame of the case.

Gents,
Thanks for the suggestions. I had limited time last night, so I tried what I thought would be the easiest fix, I loosened the case screws (I don't think I had them too tight). Well, the watch ran fine last night and into this morning. I brought it to work with me, and I think it stopped for a couple of minutes during the commute. The ticking sounds fine in the dial up position, but in the pendant up position I can sometimes hear an irregularity.
I am here at work, without loupe or screwdrivers, so I can't do much now, but I wonder if I should try to further loosen the screws?? When I get home I will check the hinge (it is indeed hinged back) and balance cock. I also have a 12s Elgin case that appears to be a larger diameter, but not necessarily thicker...
For what it's worth, overnight the watch seemed to keep pretty good time (no timing machine, but I used the Belmonte Official Regulator -- a battery-operated Westclox clock hanging on our kitchen wall ). Thanks again,
Pete

Hi Peter, Try to recase it without the case screws and see how it runs. Then we can go from there, Hope it helps. Ted

More clues...

quote:

The ticking sounds fine in the dial up position, but in the pendant up position I can sometimes hear an irregularity.

Here's some more possibilities. There ain't much room for error in the 1894. I would check the endshake and sideshake of the balance. If too much can cause the balance to strike the center wheel. Bent balance pivots will also cause this.

Another thing to check. Especially if it is a 19J '94 (cap jewels on escape wheel) is bent escape wheel pivots. This can cause a couple of "bad sounding ticks" every 15 ticks or so.

Ain't watchmaking a grand adventure into the unknown

Thanks Mike and Ted,
I'll try these suggestions today and report back later today or tomorrow. The watch (with only seven jewels) has been doing fine all day, keeping good time dial-up on my desk. Every once in a while I pick it up, pendant up or pendant down, just to confirm the slight irregularity. Yes, a grand adventure into the unknown, well said!!

Update:
With the case back open, leaving the case screws in and holding the watch pendant up, there is still an irregularity in the ticking. Taking the case screws out didn't change anything. The balance seems ok, no wobble, although I didn't remove it to re-examine the pivots yet. The watch kept good time overnight, but this morning, after holding the watch pendant up, down, and sideways for a while, I opened the case back, put the watch dial down, and observed the escapement "stuttering" a bit, including a pause or retrograde of the 4th wheel. But soon it settled down and went back to a vigorous vibration.

I now think there might have been two problems: Tight case screws that might have caused the movement to slow or stop when the case back was closed, and another, second, problem. I think the second problem, the irregular ticking when pendant up/down, lies somewhere between the 4th wheel and pallet. I straightened the 4th wheel arbor; maybe I didn't do it sufficiently?? This was the first time I'd ever done that, and I don't have truing calipers. Am I on the right track?
Thanks again,
Pete

Pete,
It was a minor miracle that you straightened the fourth wheel pivot without breaking it! Always break when I try it.
I suspect that may be where the problem is. The arbor and/or pivot is not quite true and is binding a bit on the second hand end. Therefore when the movement is face down the wheel is riding on this pivot (causing the stuttering, etc.). That is just a guess though.
You could let down the power, remove the pallet, rewind it and observe wheel action. But since we know already that most of the power is getting through I doubt if anything would be noticeable unless the arbor is way out of line. Only way to know for sure, I suppose, would be to replace the fourth wheel and arbor.
These type things can be so baffling and yet so simple once you find the solution!

OK, now I'm confused. I took out the case screws, reinserted them lightly, and the watch ran and sounded fine in all positions for a long time. Now it seems to be mostly fine, but I'm not satisfied. Well, within the next couple of days I'll check the 4th wheel, escape wheel, pallet, balance pivots, etc., to see if there is anything there that might be causing this. I'll also have access to a timing machine later in the week.
So, I'm somewhat baffled but willing to try some more. Thanks again,
Pete Belmonte

Follow up:
The watch seems to be working fine; it is in beat and keeping time within seconds per day. But, I still hear an occasional stuttering. So, I'm happy for now and will set the watch aside to work / learn on other watches, including a wristwatch that I've re-staffed (my first ever ) and a cylinder escapement pocket watch. Thanks for all your inputs.
Pete Belmonte

Good going Peter on the watches.You can come back later with more experience and work on the Waltham.
I have not tried restaffing, you are moving right along in the repair work, keep it up.

Kevin,
Thanks for the encouragement. The restaffing went well, except that I crushed the original roller table (note to self: don't use the hammer like a carpenter next time). Luckily, the watchmaker who was teaching me had a spare! As you've said (and others on this site), it is a bit easier to work on pocket watches than on wrist watches. Thanks again,
Pete

Peter you are fortunate and lucky to be learning from a watch maker too.
Wish i had someone nearby.But i have learned alot here from John D and others here and i read alot, and of course you cant beat PRACTICE and more PRACTICE.
I am at cross roads as to which i like better to fix, clocks or watches.

Kevin,
I am indeed fortunate to be able to learn from an experienced watchmaker. However, I can get to his house only once a week, and only for about two hours! So, I get a LOT of help/information right here (that's why I post a lot of "help!" messages ). I see that you have posted quite a bit on the clock repair forum, so I guess you're broadening your horizons. I'd be interested to hear which you like better, and why, and if either one is "easier" or more satisfying.
Pete