Hello Fellow Chapter Members,
I am beginning to disassemble, clean, and oil an Alfex movement; it was in a Chantel pocket watch, ca. 1980, but the movement is much smaller than the case, probably about a 6/0 size (I wonder if it was meant for a wristwatch?). The movement is a direct seconds hand movement, the first I've ever worked on.
I have removed the movement from the case, and taken off the hands and dial, but I haven't removed the balance assembly or the train bridge yet; I was hoping to more closely examine it before I get too far, too fast. There appears to be an intermediate wheel below the mainspring barrel; the intermediate wheel meshes with the cannon pinion that is riding loosely over the seconds post (extending from the fourth wheel in the center of the movement). The hour wheel rides snuggly over the cannon pinion. Now, with this arrangement, it seems to me that it is the unwinding of the mainspring barrel (and the subsequent movement of the sub-intermediate wheel) that is actually controlling the minute hand movement, versus the second wheel as in other movement configurations. Also, it looks like an intermediate setting wheel meshes with the same wheel (the one below the mainspring barrel) in order to set the time.
Question: Do I have this analyzed correctly so far? Is there anything else I need to know, as far as wheel arrangement or possible difficulties, before I remove the train bridge? Keep in mind that I am a relative novice! Thanks for your help,
Pete Belmonte

Pete,
Unfortunately I can not answer your inquire, I am not familiar with the arrangement you described; it would help a lot if you could take a picture.
I am sure other memebers will come on your help, just try a picture to make things clear.

Lets wait...

Carlos Flores

Pete,

Like Carlos said, we would need a picture of your watch. When you say "direct seconds" movement, are you talking about a "sweep" seconds hand that is driven by an arbor extending through the center wheel arbor?

John and Carlos,
Thanks for your replies. I will try for a picture later, but I want to reply, too. By "direct seconds" I mean that the seconds hand is a sweep seconds hand that is actually ON the center wheel arbor, and the center wheel happens to be the fourth wheel because of the wheel arrangement. I got the terminology from a Time Zone article on center seconds hands. The idea is that the seconds hand, in such an arrangement, is directly driven by power from the train, versus other types of center seconds hand arrangements that provide for intermediate wheels. The result is that the minute hand now becomes driven by an intermediate wheel. That article didn't show "my" type of movement, however.
I hope my explanation makes some sense!! Thanks,
Pete

Hello All,
I'm sorry, I tried to upload a blurry photo of the dial side of the movement, but it was too large, exceeding the allowable size. The photo was very blurry anyway and might not have helped much. So, if anyone can shed any light on the movement as described above, I'd be grateful. Otherwise I guess I'll plow ahead with disassembly. Thanks,
Pete

Hello Folks,
I have the Alfex movement mostly disassembled, and I thought I'd share some notes:
There is indeed a subsidiary wheel "beneath" and attached to the barrel. As the barrel unwinds, the upper (great) wheel turns the second wheel while the lower wheel meshes with and turns the cannon pinion and minute hand.
It has a pin lever escapement (although the movement has 17 jewels). It has a solid three-arm balance wheel; there is no impulse pin or jewel as I'm used to; however there is, in place of a regular roller table, a table with a small projection that functions as an impulse pin.
The fourth wheel arbor protrudes through the dial side plate and carries the seconds hand; the arbor has a "knobby" portion that probably serves to prevent it from slipping too far down (?).
The crown wheel screw is left-hand threaded; the mainspring is a brace-type, having a tongue that fits into a recess in the inner wall of the barrel(and the spring appears to be in good condition).
The winding stem is released by pressing a very small "button" that apparently releases tension on the detente lever.
The entire movement looks to be in good shape (it is only about 25 years old), but could stand a cleaning. The jewels look fine, too.

(This is all probably not too interesting to most folks, but I hope it will be of interest to fellow novices who are trying to learn!)
Thanks,
Pete

Initial success, then a major set back: I was able to clean and oil the movement; then I had the movement almost completely re-assembled. But, as I was trying to reinstall the balance assembly and balance bridge, I managed to foul the hairspring. (As I was setting it in the movement, the bridge fell off the side of the movement, with the balance wheel still in the movement, and dangled by the hairspring from the edge 2-inch cube movement holder. Lesson learned: next time try to use a shorter movement block.)
In an effort to fix this, I took the collet off the balance staff, but I can't figure out how to get the hairspring out of the stud (I had left the balance assembly intact when I disassembled the movement); there is no screw, but there is a hole in the bottom of the stud with some substance in there, apparently holding the spring in.
Question: Does anyone have an idea how to remove the hairspring, and reinstall it? AND: Does anyone have tips on how best to un-foul the spring?? Can it be done???
I am disappointed in this turn of events and a bit discouraged--it seems that my failures are far more than my successes at this point.
Thanks for any ideas you might have,
Pete

Peter, don,t give up.
If i have this right you are new to watch repairs.The watch you are working on now is around a 6 sz.Just my opinion on this is i would start practicing on a 16 or 18 sz.And i would use a lower jewel lower count movement that is available cheap and the parts too.When you improve on your skills then go and work on other kinds of watches and different sizes.
I have had my share of broke pivots and other problems.I have not given up.
We have some great people here to help you along the way of learning.

Kevin,
Thanks for the encouragement; I won't give up. Good advice about the 16s movements. I have "worked" on 16s, 10s, 0s. This one, I think it is 6/0s, is the smallest. It was inexpensive, $10 on eBay, and is a very nice looking pocket watch, a good runner, too, until now. The movement is very interesting to me, I've never seen the wheel arrangement before.
I will try to straighten the hairspring, but I will keep an eye out for cheap 16s Elgin movements/watches. Thanks again,
Pete

Pete,

Kevin provides some good advice. I learned watch repair exclusively on larger, less complicated watches before diving into the smaller ones. Confidence comes with success. You will have more success in learning watch repair on the larger, uncomplicated movements.

Good luck! We're all rooting for you!!

Thanks John. I have the entire watch back together (cleaned and oiled, too) except for the hairspring and collet. I really enjoyed working on this one -- it was going quite well, actually, until the hairspring incident. As I said above, I think I will try more 16s movements; I agree with you, they are a bit easier to manipulate.

Question: Can I purchase, say, an Elgin (or other brand) size 6/0 hairspring and expect that it will fit this balance staff?
Pete

Hi Pete, you may find a 6 sz hairspring on Ebay or elsewhere, but the timing of the hairspring won,t be the same as the one that was on it, probaly too slow or too fast.
This is my take on this, i personally would not loose sleep on timing a 6 sz watch, unless it was something special.
John D has good advice for watch repair , hope he answers you as well.
Have fun and learn as well on the watches, there is much to learn my freind.

Thanks Kevin,
I am going to keep my eye out for a suitable hairspring/collet. If/when I get one, I'll report back here. I don't worry too much about timing my watches. My method is: If the watch ticks after I have it back together, I'm happy.
Thanks again,
Pete

Kevin, I believe Pete was looking for a 6/0 hairspring and not a 6s. The size difference is huge. Unless the proper tools are utilized, it is easy to damage the collet while attempting to remove and/or install the hairspring.

Pete, Like Kevin said, a replacement hairspring will require some timing work to be done. This could require the addition, removal or undercutting of the balance screws and repoising. If it's running just a little fast, timing screw washers can be used.

I would not get into balance work of any kind until you've mastered the basic disassembly and assembly techniques.

John,
Thanks for the info. I have successfully removed the hairspring and collet, but I've never tried to replace one yet. The balance is a solid balance, no screws or washers. If I ever find a 6/0 hairspring and collet, I will try to reinstall it upon the staff. That is really the extent of my balance work. I have enough of a challenge just to get the balance assembly and bridge back in the movement without damage! But I'm learning and willing to learn more. Thanks,
Pete

I have only seen the solid balance wheels on the Swiss fakes.There may be other watches that use these but i do not know of any.
Pete learning is done in steps and removing a hairspring and replacing it can be a big job.And i do not know how a watch could be timed with a solid balance wheel.
John is a good man and has helped me alot on watch repair, he always gives good adviceI myself would practice on a american made watch.
Just my opinion.

Kevin,
I have a 12s Elgin on the way (I wanted 16s but I get outbid). The 12s is supposedly in working order; so, if I can manage the disassembly, cleaning/oiling, and reassembly, I will be pleased. I've had success on my 10s Arnex (ca. 1970, solid balance wheel, too, Swiss movement). So far, the 16s Elgin was the "easiest" (and John helped with two repairs I couldn't do!). Thanks again,
Pete

Peter keep up your hard work and your steps in learning will be great.You will look back at yourself in a year or so and be amazed at how far you have gone.Do you have Fried,s Watch Repair manual? It is a good book and well worth the money.
There was a Elgin practice watch that Aaron and others worked on, i do not know who has it now but it would be a good learning experience that watch for you to clean and oil it.
Maybe some one knows the whereabouts of it.

Kevin,
Thanks again for your encouragement! Yes, I have Fried's book, as you said, well worth the money (I bought it on eBay "Buy it Now" -- it appears to be fairly available there). I also have a few others, including the Bulova manual, another good book (I collect horology books, too, which cuts into my spending!).
I am enjoying this learning process, even when I was staring at my balance bridge dangling helplessly over the edge of the movement holder by the poor, tangled hairspring
I hope to have better news when I look into the Elgin 12s.
Pete