This is related to Aaron's endshake thread. I am working on an 2 Tone 18S Rockford Grade 925 Model 9. I beleive that it takes staff #585 since it is a single roller version. The staff that is currently in it is to long, and as a fix, someone had shimmed in a couple of dial washers under the balance bridge. Also the diameter of the roller post is too small, and the fix that was done was to use some adhedive to keep the roller table in place (this was after they tried to reduce the roller table hole with a triangular point punch).

Would someone happen to have the dimentions of the 585 staff in their reference (over all length and roller post diameter)? Was there more than one version of the 585? I am also looking for an ever elusive 585 staff if anyone has one they wish to part with.

Mike Miller

Mike

The dimensions on the #585 Rockford

Roller table: 1.26 mm

Overall length: 6.08mm


Frank

Frank Juchniewicz

[This message was edited by Frank Juchniewicz on March 08, 2004 at 21:37.]

This chart may help.



Kenny

Mike,
Tom Mister at Dashto has the Rockford 585 staff listed. Here`s the link.

Dashto = Rockford staffs



Kenny

Frank,

Could you please check your book again for the roller seat measurement? I'm showing the following dimensions:

Total length - 6.08

Balance Seat - 1.25

Hairsping Seat - .87

Roller Seat - .73

Hub Thickness - .60

Mike,

What are some of the dimensions of the staff you currently have? According to my book, Rockford used the following staffs for 18s SR's:

340, 341, 342, 343, 344, 522 and 585. The only DR staff was #880. Lengths ranged from 6.08 to 7.05.

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

John
I have since found two listings for the #585.
The measurements that are given in the book I have are as follows,

I= Total length
II= lower height
III= roller table seat
IV= balance shoulder seat
V= pivot diameter

I=6.08 I= 6.13
II= 3.87 II= 3.89
III= 1.26 III= 1.25
IV= .72 IV= .73
V= .... V= 12.0

American pocket and wrist watch balance interchangeability list

by, G.E. Townsend

Frank

Frank Juchniewicz

Thanks for the replies everyone:

Kenny,
Thanks for the link to Dash-2. Somehow I missed it in his list, but I have some on order now from Jules Borel.

John and Frank,
The dimentions that seem to be out of whack on mine:

Total Length= 6.35mm
Roller Post= .64mm

This staff is obviously off by quite a bit. here's a picture of it.

Mike Miller

Mike,

Looks like you might have #522 staff. Here are the dimensions for the #522:

Length - 6.35

Balance - 1.25

Hairspring - .87

Roller - .64

Hub thickness - .67

It kind of makes sense because the #585 roller seat should be .73mm and the #522 is .64mm. They tried to reduce the roller to fit the smaller .64mm diameter. Plus the #522 is a whopping .27mm longer.

You might want to install the lever by itself between the plates and then install your newly staffed balance. You will have a better view to watch the roller jewel interaction with the fork and how well the guard pin matches up to the roller. I guess you could also adjust the beat while you're at it.

Hope this helps and good luck!

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

Thanks John,

Luckily I have a few 18S Rockford Single Roller Tables that I can replace the cobbled one with. My staff info (same that Kenny posted) shows the #522 is used in the Rockford Model "1888 Thin." I am unfamiliar with that model.

What is the best resource for these balance staff measurements? I have several in unindexed staffs and I would like to find out what they are.

Mike Miller

Mike,

About two years ago I paid $20.00 postage included to Julian Smith for his "Dimensions of American Balance Staffs". It was actually a reproduction of "Swartchild's Build-up System of Genuine American Balance Staffs". It contains about 14 pages of staff dimensions for just about every American pocket watch. Julian's title is "Dimensions of American Staffs".

At first I thought the price was a little steep but it's been one of my best investments.

I believe Julian's address is: juliansmith@ncol.net

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

Well the 585 staff arrived from Jules Borrel, and the dimentions look like they should work.

Total length: 6.09

Roller post dia: .70

I will get it staffed in and let folks no of the results. Thanks to all for helping with this project!

Mike Miller

The staffing was a success. Just a few more adjustments to make. Here's a quick picture of the movement...

Better ones will show up on my online collection soon

Mike Miller

And here's a full frontal view

Mike Miller

Way to go Mike! Gotta love that the balance is blurry.

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

John

I didn't get a chance to ask you,but is it unusual to find two diffrent measurements for the same staff number,or was that just a mistake on the compiliers part.


Frank

Frank Juchniewicz

Frank,

It's hard to say. My information came from an old Swartchild's catalog. Some of the staff dimensions may have been obtained by measuring the original staffs. Some may have come from company records. Needless to say, every listing will be a little different depending upon how or where the dimensions were obtained.

If you have time, please check a few examples of the list I put up with your G.E. Townsend book.

John D. Duvall
Vice President, Education

John

I will pick a random sampling of staff numbers from diffrent companies,and let you know how they compare to the list you've put up.

Frank

Frank Juchniewicz

Nice job Mike, nice looking movement, i guess you,ve done a few staffing jobs.
It must be the hardest or almost the hardest repair to do on a watch.

Kevin "Veritas" West

That said, however, replacing a balance staff is a very basic job, especially if a correct replacement is available. It gets infinitely more complicated when a staff has to be made by hand, especially if it's to fit a watch with a verge, cylinder, or duplex escapement.

I've made a few verge staffs, and one duplex, but I've only replaced the pivots on cylinder staffs, and modified existing cylinders to answer different purposes.

Say, here's a good trivia question:

Does anyone know the correct angular diversion for the "pallets" or "flags" on a verge staff?

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Steve Maddox
Past President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

Kevin,

Steve is right. Staffing is a very basic part of the job. And if that is all that is wrong with these old watches we would be lucky. Even with staffing though comes repoising and timing adjustments. Give it a try on some old balances. BTW Dashto has a nice Inverto listed for sale now.

Steve,

I'll take a stab at the question, 96 degrees is a popular angle, but they can be anywhere between 90 and 110 degrees

Mike Miller

When making a replacement for one whose original angle is unknown, it's usually safest to start with an angle of about 100 degrees, which is an approximate "average." Most verge watches weren't very precision anyway, and it isn't at all uncommon to have to make "adjustments" as necessary for a particular movement.

The easiest way to make a verge staff is to start with a flat piece of metal, then apply the appropriate twist. It can also be done using round stock, by turning "dumbbell" shaped shoulders and cutting them away into "flags," but that's a lot more difficult.

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SM