I'm learning on my own here and need some input from the more expereinced.

I bought an old Elgin 16S with a broken pivot for the express purpose of replacing it. Well, I learned alot along the way, but in the end I managed to bend the balance wheel and never did manage to successfully replace the pivot - but that's another story.

I found on eBay a fellow selling a complete Elgin balance assembly for "95%" of the 16S's out there and I won it. Came in the original packaging and looks like the wheel that came out of the watch. However, when I put the new assembly back in the watch, the wheel does not turn freely and seems to be dragging in the top jewel. It may also have a problem in the bottom, but I can't tell.

So here are the questions:

How can I use the Elgin factory number to see if this is the correct assembly for the watch?

Could the dragging be indicative of another problem?

Thanks -

Jim

DeWitt, New York

Jim,

Can you post the serial number of the Elgin you are trying to fix? If you have the part number of the balance assembly that would also be helpful. I will look it up and see if it is a match. Bent balances can be tricky, but they are usually repairable. As far as the lack of motion, there are many factors... endshake, sideshake, pivot size, jewel size, etc.

Did the new assembly come with a hairspring attached?

Let us know and we will be happy to help.

Mike Miller

NAWCC-IHC Member #27

Hi Mike and I appreciate the help.

The watch serial number is 19319113.

The Balance Assembly did come with the hairspring attached. I find that I don't have the complete part number but most of it is: ...36-7198947. At least I think that is the part number. There is another number of the package: A-36-038-ORD-15113.

Jim

DeWitt, New York

Jim,

First off, let me say that you might be interested in Wayne's Elgin Site. It is a treasure trove of info on Elgins. at this site you can do serial number lookups on his database that has a lot of info.

http://elginwatches.org/index.html

From his site, we can see that it is a Grade 293 Model 7, Open Face, Gold Guilt, 7 Jewel, unadjusted movement. But you probably knew that...

Now we can look up complete info in the Elgin National Watch Companies Watch Materials Catalog. They list the complete balance assembly part number as #4072. This is a factory number, which unfortunately, nonfactory parts suppliers don't use. Hence your parts numbers don't help us much unless we can find an index from the supplier.

In such a case there are still ways to see if it is a match. First comes visual inspection... Do they look exactly identical (single roller, staff shape and location of hubs, etc) Careful measurement with micrometer will confirm the proper heigth of the balance on the staff in comparison with the old one. Also guage the roller jewel. Is it the same? Remember we are talking of specs in the thousandths of a millimeter.

Remember though, once you go through this ritual, and even if everything is a match, you will have a watch with a balance that has nonmatching serial numbers (unless it is a non-numbered balance) with the rest of the movement, which is seen by many collectors as an ill marriage.

If it were me, I would first try to repair the original balance. Restaffing (original factory number 861) and truing in the flat and round, and poising. But this does take some tools and practice. Elgins are good watches to practice on since parts are usually available.

Hope that this isn't to discouraging. I travelled the very same route that you are on now. Mine was a Waltham 18S PS Bartlett. After a lot of learning, tinkering, and mistakes, the old feller is strongly ticking away in it's own display. persistance and patience are the most exercised tools of a watchmaker.

Keep us posted and welcome to an enjoyable hobby!

Mike Miller

NAWCC-IHC Member #27

Mike -

Thanks for the info and encouragement.

I think that perhaps I will try and restaff the original balance wheel since the new balance assembly seems to be going down a route that may not promise much success.

Jim

DeWitt, New York

Jim,

Was this balance complete sold by "Dashto"? He has sold strength #3 hairsprings with the caveot that they "fit 90% of the 16s Elgins out there". However, he doesn't state that 90% of the Elgins out there use a strength #2 hairspring.

I believe your balance complete and the strength #3 hairsprings that you see on Ebay (in original brown packaging) are government surplus from the 40's and were probably used on the WWII stop watch/timers. You can tell this by "ORD" somewhere in the part number. It stood for Ordinance. I tried one of those #3 hairsprings in an older 16s Elgin but the watch ran about 15 minutes fast per hour!! I had to load it down with additional balance screws (18 total)to time it.

If you have a good set of calipers, measure the staff on your new balance as Mike suggested. Here is what an Elgin #861 staff should be:

Total Length: 5.20mm
Balance Seat: 1.10mm
Hairspring Seat: .81mm
Roller Seat: .60mm
Hub Thickness: .55mm
Pivot: Either .10, .11, .12 or .13mm

Most likely it will be pivot 10 or 11. If you still have at least one good pivot on your original staff, measure it to see. The old Elgin timers probably had a pivot 12 or 13 because the balance swing was much faster that a conventional movement.

You can also set the new balance in the plate jewel and see how much it leans (be gentle!). If it stays somewhat vertical then the pivot is too big. It should lean about about 25-30 degrees or so.

I recently purchased a digital caliper on Ebay for around $22.00. It works great and you can switch from mm to inches with a push of the button.

Please let us know how you are progressing and if you need any additional help on measurements. When I get a chance, I will post a picture of a staff and where to check for the dimensions.

Good Luck!

John D. Duvall
Rosamond, CA.