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Welcome Aboard IHC185™ Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Open to the World RESEARCH FORUMS Hamilton and 992B Research Forum Hamilton Case #16 and #17 question
Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Open to the World RESEARCH FORUMS Hamilton and 992B Research Forum Hamilton Case #16 and #17 question Topic ClosedGo | New Topic | Find-Or-Search | Notify | Tools |
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Could someone tell me the approximate year the Hamilton Railroad Case Model 16 and 17 were introduced to the market. Thanks, Robert Sweet | ||
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| IHC President Life Member  |
Hello Robert, Welcome to Chapter 185 it's nice to have you with us. Both the Case 16 and 17 were very popular when new and that continues a half century later. Some of us have been compiling serial numbers from boxed sets and other sources to determine when the various changes took place. I urge you and everyone reading this to share the serial numbers of movement and case combinations with all of us in a posting here in this forum to help in plotting the time line. Here is some general information. We see the 10K Rolled Gold Plate Case 16 in the 1953 Hamilton Catalog and it was not shown in 1950 so there is a starting point. Likewise the 10K Gold Filled and limited production 14K Solid Gold Case 17 are prominent in the 1958 lineup but were not in the 1955 Catalog. Again, thanks for coming on board. Lindell Hamilton Case 16 on the left and Case 17 are very attractive...  | |||
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Hello Lindell, I appreciate very much your quick response and the quality of the answer to my question. My plans are to purchase a Hamilton 992B in the near future. At this point, I'm just doing a lot of research on different cases, and etc. This forum is a great learning tool for all new collectors like myself. Thanks again. Robert Sweet | |||
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I believe Lindell has the dates close ... one has to remember on the Model 16, that is is marked "rolled gold plate"... this would be the 50's on case....there was an earlier version of this case marked "10k gold filled".... The model 17...... We have a version made by Keystone that will date from about 1950 to 1953.. (this is when I understand Keystone was purchased by Elgin "i believe").. so the "Star" model 17 would be after this... I have an example that has an owner dated document that the watch was purchased in November 1956.... and has a model 17 case (star)... this is a boxed example with matching label numbers.. i am the second owner of the watch... Kent and Ed published in the "RAILROAD CORNER" the introductory ads for many of the Hamilton Factory cases... but they did not get to the later cases, awaiting an upcoming article by Art Zimmerla.... One thing I have noticed is there is a notable reduction in Hamilton Advertising after WWII.... so we mainly have to rely on the Factory Product List provided to the Jewelers... | ||||
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Hello Terry, I appreciate very much your additional remarks, especially about the earlier version of what would become the Model 16. I have one other question! Assuming that Hamilton only sold 992B in cases advertised in their catalogs, what model cases would have been used? Thanks in advance. Robert Sweet | |||
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Hamilton seems to have used the following cases for the 992B... The Model 2 bar-over-crown but must be marked with an "H" prefix over 'about' 400,000 (have not determined an absolute value here) The Model 10 bar-over-crown but must be marked with an "H" prefix over 'about' 400,000 (have not determined an absolute value here) The Model 11 The Model A The Number "3"... which is a tu-tone variation of the model 2 bar-over-crown case Model 12 Model 14 Model 15 stainless steel Model 16 rolled gold plate Model 17 (keystone and star) There is also evidence of there being two other cases, but no images of these cases have been found... yet The Model "B" .... two inner box labels have been observed The Model "C".... referenced in some factory records There has not been evidence discovered for a Model 13 case... (That could be the "Number 3" to avoid "13" use. There are original watches shipped to Canada that are in Canadian marked cases..... one resembling the Model 7 case ... these are usually marked 'Fortune' and/or 'Sturdy'... it is believed these were shipped to Canadian jobbers as a movement only (possibly fitted with a 24 hr dial from factory) to be cased and timed in Canada to possibly circumvent import tarrifs. We learn a little more every day.  | ||||
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Terry, Many thanks for such a complete and thorough answer. Robert Sweet | |||
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| IHC President Life Member |
That's a helpful explanation Terry, so I'll just fill in a few additional points. The "earlier" case shown in the 1934 catalog is essentially similar to the Case 16 that came out much later in the 992B era. That previous case was used primarily for the "Hamilton Traffic Special" and was marked "10K Gold-Filled" but as mentioned above, the Case 16 which dates from about 1953 onward apparently came only with "10K Rolled-Gold-Plate" markings. All were signed as Hamilton cases. Exercise caution because a lot of these watches have been changed around over the years. The Hamilton Case 17 may have first been available during 1955 even though it does not appear in the 1955 Hamilton catalog. The marked as Keystone Case and "RAILROAD 17" are the earliest ones and Star apparently absorbed Keystone at about that point. As I understand it, Hamilton owned both names. By 1953 Wadsworth had been purchased by Elgin and that may be part of why Hamilton soon stopped using their cases. Consider this too, the then new Case 17 was essentially an updated styling of the exceptionally popular Wadsworth Case 2 which since 1926 had been in the Hamilton lineup. The Stainless-Steel Case 15 along with the Rolled-Gold-Plate 16 and the Gold-Filled 17 which was also available in 14K Solid-Gold were around for many years. The 15, 16 and 17 were offered in Hamilton catalogs through the end of regular production in 1969. We also find documented examples of post-production 4C Prefix serial numbered 992B examples in both the Stainless-Steel 15 and Gold-Filled 17 cases. Recently an S Prefix 992B surfaced in a Solid-Gold Case 17 and that appears to be an original combination. We're talking 1970 on those we refer to as "post-production" watches. Terry's answer to Robert's question listing most of the cases that correctly housed 992B movements from the factory is very good. He covered the civilian 992B examples in non-argumentative cases that are documented as correct from Hamilton catalogs and advertising and that's quite a list. The two-tone Case 3 featured Gold-Filled frame with Stainless "pie-crust-edge" back and bezel which are are unique to those cases. When buying, check serial numbers carefully. All of those on Terry's list except the B, C and 12 are depicted in Shugart's Watch Guide on pages 234-235 of the 2004 Edition. There are of course the known 14K Solid-Gold versions of Case 2 and Case 17 to consider as well. And there is an example of the previously unknown Solid-Gold Case A from around 1955 complete with the matching numbers K393484 and Keystone 14K markings. It actually does exist and it will be interesting to see if any others of those ever surface. There are also several questionable cases including a possible Case B and a Case C which Terry mentioned and perhaps we have identified. To further confuse the issue Hamilton may have used a few controversial "leftovers" and even some oddballs as well due to wartime shortages. Some of us have been compiling numbers for some time now. There are often differing opinions on just when this or that case model came and went but in the end there is much agreement on the most basic facts. One thing that many collectors try to keep in mind in putting together their watch collection is to concentrate on collecting those which conform to factory catalogs and advertisements. Another is to remember three letters "ABC" which simply means, Always Buy Condition as nothing takes the place of condition. Hope at least some of this is of further help, additions and corrections are welcome. And now... Lindell I believe this may be the ultra-rare "Case C" from early 1940s...  | |||
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Lindell, Terry, I appauld both of you for the outstanding team work on my question. One last question at this time, would one you mind listing the producer of each case, excluding those you have already listed? Thanks again. Robert | |||
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Sure.... "crossbar" (some call it model 1)... Wadsworth - (1924) Model 2 Wadsworth - (1926) Model 3* (checkerboard bezel).... believed to be Fahys - (1926) Model 4 believed to be Fahys - (1927) Model 5 Keystone - (1928) Model 6 believed to be Fahys - (1929) Model 7 Keystone - (1930) Model 8 Wadsworth - (1931) Model 9 believed to be Fahys - (perhaps 1932**) Model 10 Wadsworth - (1936) Model 11 Keystone - (1939-40) Model 12 Star (defiance marked) - (1946**) Model 14 Keystone - (1948**) Model 15 Star - (1949**) Model 16 Star - (perhaps 1952**) Model 17 (very early Keystone approx 1953 **), later Star - (perhaps 1955**) "Mainliner" Keystone - (1937) visit this link for more "mainliner" education... https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=search&s=32...1&reqWords=mainliner Model A Keystone - (1940) (Model A in 14K Solid-Gold Number K393484 - approximately 1955**) Model B To be determined - ( Model C To be determined - (Perhaps 1944**) Model #3* (two-tone bar over GF frame SS back and bezel) Wadsworth - (1946) (But note NONE observed thus far are marked "stainless steel".. all observed examples are marked "base metal" but the bezel and back are stainless steel.) * Note: Both cases carried the "3" designation but they are very different. ** Estimated Dates The dates of introduction shown in parenthesis, as noted some are estimates. "We're learning something new every day." | ||||
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Terry, You mentioned earlier articles written by Kent and Ed about introductory ads for Hamilton Cases in the "Railroad Corner". Are these in a series or just one article, also how may I obtain copies? I'm willing to purchase if necessary. Robert | |||
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| IHC Life Member |
Have pity on a newbie... An old thread, but I don't see this info. I have a 992B with movement SN C349089 and case # R225934. This looks like 1951, which narrows the range of 1950-1953 cited above. BMN RWS DS dial which I believe is the melamine 379 (but I'm certainly no authority!). Case is marked 10K rolled gold plate, Hamilton Watch Co. with a star. Looks like a #16 with a somewhat loose bow that has been worn enough to make is ever so sightly "pointed" rather than the shape I see in comparison charts. If photos will help, ask for what you'd like to see - I'll have it in my pocket all this week... Confirmation that the case SN -> #16 would be nice - I'm still looking for the right tabulated info. While I have you - the two "sunk" regions in the dial have, in a certain light, a distinct circular pattern resembling a Fresnel lens - is that typical/helpful in identification? Photographing this might be a significant challenge (for me) Kenneth Sloan | |||
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992B movement SN C349089= Confirmed 1951 : HAMILTON 992B MOVEMENT NUMBERS C349089 and case # R225934> Probably Correct : 992B Examples in Brown Boxes Dial? Need more information . Best to start a new topic here: Hamilton and 992B Research Forum Pictures of the dial are required. It’s best to include a complete set of pictures including the bezel on and off as well as the case back, case back inside, and movement especially when you’re inquiring about a complete watch. Hopefully that helps you Mr. Sloan, RR | |||
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IHC Life Member |
Hello Everyone, I have a hard to find brown Hamilton Cigarette case. Even if you are not interested in the Cig Case you might want to take a look at the box labels. It shows the case model to be a Hamilton model " B " case along with the case serial number. Unfortunately the watch was missing from this case & box, when I bought it years ago. Fred NOTE: SEE THIS TOPIC FOR MORE ABOUT THE HAMILTON "B" CASE: https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...6044861/m/4633946787  | |||
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