Internet Horology Club 185
case/movement dates - how close is close enough?

This topic can be found at:
https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/254108073/m/8443918387

November 10, 2014, 16:00
Kenneth R. Sloan
case/movement dates - how close is close enough?
It seems clear that cases were not used in strict chronological order. My question is: how far apart should the dates be before one begins to doubt that they were married at the factory?

To make this concrete: consider a Wadsworth case #H620123 (1942) mated with a 992B #C190123 (1947).
The good news is that the case *existed* when the movement was made. What probability would you assign to this case being in stock and available to house this movement - at the factory?


Kenneth Sloan
November 16, 2014, 17:50
Richard Romero
When trying to determine if a Wadsworth-Hamilton case and movement combination are correct refer to the WADSWORTH-HAMILTON CASE NUMBERS, History, Pictures and Database. The second paragraph by Lindell explains the process, “ Begin by looking up your Hamilton movement on the Hamilton Serial Number Listings Preserved by John F. Gelson then check the Wadsworth case numbers and years of production on this list for the one that comes closest to yours. If your movement and case are an original combination the years should then be a close or exact match.

A quick way to look up a 992B movement year is: HAMILTON 992B MOVEMENT NUMBERS

quote:
It seems clear that cases were not used in strict chronological order. My question is: how far apart should the dates be before one begins to doubt that they were married at the factory?


Approximately 18 months is a good guideline.

quote:
To make this concrete: consider a Wadsworth case #H620123 (1942) mated with a 992B #C190123 (1947).


Using the links and information above we find that H620123 is closest to 1943 and C190123 is from 1947. These parts used together are an incorrect watch combination.

quote:
The good news is that the case *existed* when the movement was made. What probability would you assign to this case being in stock and available to house this movement - at the factory?


This case and movement combination did not leave the Hamilton factory together. Prior to 1947 during the war years Hamilton ran out of cases and they were housing movements in various cases that are not often seen. There is documentation from Hamilton explaining they were having difficulties getting the usual styles of railroad cases and would be using substitute cases. Those substitute cases are very interesting and some can be seen in the following post: Curious Hamilton cases
November 16, 2014, 17:51
Richard Romero
Shown below are 4 watches I consider to be correct movement and case number combinations that match the Wadsworth database numbers. The first two are close to the case number in question and the second two the movement number. These combinations offer some variances that I consider worthwhile to explore.

First we have a Second Signature movement with a gold center wheel and circular pattern winding wheels.

1. H609201 and C61213


November 16, 2014, 17:51
Richard Romero
Next is an early Third Signature movement with a gold center wheel and circular pattern winding wheels.



2. H620822 and C67115


November 16, 2014, 18:07
Richard Romero
Here is a Third Signature movement with a brass center wheel and plain pattern winding wheels.



3. C186997 and H940961


November 16, 2014, 18:13
Richard Romero
Finally is a Third Signature movement with a brass center wheel and plain pattern winding wheels. The newer Wadsworth case backs are not stamped PAT. 5-22-26 like the first two shown.

To see the different signature movements and features refer to: 992B Movement Feature Details Database

A watch recently sold on ebay with corresponding movement (C190xxx) and case (H620xxx) numbers to the ones in question here. That watch has issues which will be posted in the pitfalls area.

RR

4. C194832 and H955082


November 17, 2014, 08:12
Dr. Debbie Irvine

Thanks Richard for the very detailed explanation with supportive information!

Smile