Hi All,
I just bought a Verge and am interested in trying to date it. It has those egyptian type pillars and is pretty thick. I can figure out it has marks for London. But thats about it. I'll upload some photos when I receive the watch..

J Richards, London on Movement . Thomas Cook on Dial Serial Number is 17680

Hi Bruce

I think you went throu the 1800 wall with your new timepiece which is a real challenge in pocket watch collecting !

To tell more about your watch i would like to see pictures as soon as you can take them.

First thoughts:

The hallmarks are hard to read and what i see for sure are the sterling silver mark and the city mark of London, the date letter is unreadable. From the colour and reflections of the picture i think the case is fire-gilded silver.

Two different names on dial and movement show that the dial has once been replaced (hopefully with a time period one).
I will try to find out more about J(ohn) or J(ames) Richards of London.

Regards
Gerald

I found an entry in Britten's 'Old clocks ans Watches and their Makers':

Richards John,London, listed by the Worshipful Company of Clockmakers 1770; several watches 1780 - 96.

Gerald

Gerald, I got the watch and took some photos. Its running very sluggish and the amplitude is very week. I took a bunch of photos that will follow

Roger,

I was looking at the English Hallmarks last night and was trying to match them up. The mark (under a loupe looks very close to an L from 1766. The bottom portion of the hallmark is straight with a small curve up at the end. The top has almost a fish hook that goes from the top to the left. If you look at the 1766 L it is very close. The pierced cock and pillars look to be correct to the period.

What do you think?

Bruce

Still waiting for pictures

The hallmark is very hard to read and it might be that with a lupe and a gentle twisting of the watch in side-light you spot a better view. From this picture I would definitly put it in the capital gothic letter set used from 1756 to 1775.
The 1774's 'T' might fit also to the mark .

Gerald

Gerald, are you unable to see the photos? Dr Debbie was having a problem seeing another one I had taken.. I am using my new mac book.. Kinda weird.. Please let me know.

Bruce

None of the additional pictures are visible, just the titles.
Closer examination of the page shows 8 jpeg pictures sized 0 * 0 pixels.
I think the pictures were to big or in a mac specific format when you uploaded.

Gerald

Gerald, I kinda miss my pc when it comes to uploading pics. There listed as jpegs on my mac. If I emailed you the photos, could you post them up for me? Its a nice watch that folks would like to see.

Bruce

Gerald, would you be able to start a thread and perhaps teach us a bit on reading hallmark? I look in the book and I look at the watch and I seldom match it all up?

Bruce

Send them to: GZDertingen@t-online.de

Andy

Discussing hallmarks and making an educational thread is a bit different. I will keep this idea in mind and try to do this during the winter time.

Regards
Gerald

Gerald, I may have a handle on this apple / photo thing. I am going to try to upload and see what happens

back of

hallmarks

mov't

another side view

side view

outer case

dial

Bruce

A beautiful watch! Congratulations and thank's for sharing it.

The watch has those lovely 'beetle and poker' hands that made those british watches unique.
The dial is likely a time period replace and gives no information about the age of the watch.

The double case is in astonishing good condition, if you look at the pendant you can imagine that this watch had a third outer protecting case.

The movement: high build verge fusee with square baluster pillars a pierced balance cock with pierced foot that looks like a collar (no ears no laces). Balance cook engraved with a 'mascaron' or 'grotesque' - face. A part of the plate is pierced too.

The details of the movement and known and dated watches of Richards with their serial numbers show that the watch was made earlier than 1775 but close to.

Case makers initials might be W * S. Quite possibly the outer case has a second set of marks under the inlaid fabric (if made of silver) but I would leave this as is. The outer case could be made of Pinchbeck , a golden looking brass alloy (Tombak). This would better explain the condution of the case. Hard to distinguish from pictures.



Regards
Gerald