I was wondering if I could get some thoughts about the age & perhaps an idea on where this watch was made.

When I bought this watch a few years back it came with a leather thong with a fob attached. After letting this sit in a drawer since I bought it I started doing som research on the fob.

The fob is marked M.D. Sternberg Depauville N.Y. & then has what I think is a medical symbol & then crossed rifles with an eagle above & the letters USA. I think the M.D. stands for medical doctor & no the owners initials.

I have been able to locate a little information on a Abram D. Sternberg who joined the Union Army during the Civil War in Depauville NY & joined the 186 NYSV, I have found where he is mentioned as a Major & the units surgeon. I also found where he is buried in Depauville NY.

Anyway, my question is, could this watch date to that time period, I know I can't prove that the fob has always been with the watch but I am curious if it could date to the 1860's or so.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Tom

Movement

Dial side

Dust cover markings

This is a photo of the case makers marks, the case looks sterling but there are no halmarks as to any country only JD

This is the dail & case. It is missing the minute hand. The watch & the lid covers of the watch all have the same serial number, but the number marked on the dust cover along with the number of jewels is a different number.

Tom, in a word, yes, it could well have been around then.

Both the layout of the train cocks and the cylinder escapement were around long before the mid 1800's.
Also key wound and set from the back.

The movement was largely hand made, and if you look closely at the pivot holes, they All bear scribe marks from a depthing tool, which was used to plant the train.

The pivot holes would then have been hand drilled and reamed to size.
This pre-dated any mass production techniques by a long way.

A nice touch is the large centre disc on the dial plate, as this carries the lower pivot hole for the mainspring barrel.
Later cylinder (and some lever types) movements often didn't have this refinement and wore out quickly at this point.
It also has Geneva stopwork.

The dial appears to be held by taper pins too! later movements used knife edge screws - a curse often, as cack handed 'repairers' overtightened the dial with them and bust the enamel.

Not sure about your doubts regarding the jewel count though.
It appears to have jewels to the balance endstones, and will have rubies for the pivots too, the rest of the train appears to be running in plain holes.
So the 4 Rubies marked on the dust cover will be correct.

The inner dust cover isn't silver!
This probably was given a different number as a consequence, because anything that wasn't made of the same material as the main case had by law to be identified as such to prevent fraud.
Even in those days, excise officers ruled the roost!

A nice piece, thanks for posting it for us.
BTW, the 'Breguet' moon hand may be a tough one to get hold of, but I'll check my bits box for you.

Best regards

John

Almost forgot, it's probably Swiss, possibly French or even 'technically' American, because many European watchmakers emigrated to the USA and set up shop there.

Hi John
Thank you for the information, I was hoping you would share your vast knowledge of these watches.

I agree about the number of jewels, when I wrote my eariler post I thought I bet I said that wrong, what I meant was the serial number on the dust cover was different from the other numbers on the case & the watch movement (they all have the same number).

I have not had any luck going through my stuff for a hand so any help you can give would be great.

I had also wondered if it was American made, I was wondering about the case only having the makers marks, I found where there was a JD in NYNY & also in Philly Pa. that were silversmiths.

Again thanks for the info.

Tom

Happy to help Tom,
I think regarding the lack of hallmarks, it was probably never made for export so was never assayed, or maybe the hallmark symbol simply got worn off with polishing over the years.

The number on the inner dust cover could have been a serial number relating to that particular job, had it been silver the numbers would almost certainly have matched.
They do on all my silver watches anyway, both imported and home market.

If you can tell me the distance from the centre pinion to the outer chapter ring and the diameter of the 'Moon' on the hour hand, I'll have a root around for you.
You may have to construct a hand though maybe using a plain hand and the moon tip from another.

John

John

The distance from the center to the outer chapter ring is 19mm & the diameter of the moon is 1.8 mm

Thanks
Tom

Tom, I've dug out a couple of hands but think these may be a bit on the fat side, I'll keep looking for a time as I've a few (hundred)to sort through.

Of these, the longer finer hand is 20.30mm so would need tweaking on the tip.
You'd also have to ream or drill the centre hole to fit the pinion - ok as long as you have a hand reaming vice, it'll snap like a carrot if not

John.

John

I will take whatever you are willing to part with, just let me know the cost.

Thanks
Tom

Well with many thanks to our very knowledgeable & extremely helpful European Moderator Mr. John Woolsey, I now have all the hands for this watch. John sent me for free 3 possible minute hands & one matched the hour hand & fit with out any adjustments, just like a factory part.

Thank you very much John for the hand & all of the information you provide to me & all of the others on this site.

If ever I can return the favor please let me know.

Tom

Thank you for the kind comments Tom, always pleased to help if I can.

You were dead lucky the hands fitting like that, as I sent you the wrong packet ...... serendipity lending a 'hand' maybe ...........

Best regards

John