This little watch (23mm, 8/0, 10.5’”) is housed in an early conversion case. I think that it was intentionally manufactured as an early export wristwatch and doubt that the mechanism had an earlier life as a pendant watch. The mechanism itself is unremarkable and is only engraved “Swiss Made”, so the key may be in the case’s hallmarks, which are shown (I have superimposed the second). English, the language of the engraving is the tip-off. The country hallmark is replaced by the fourth mark which indicates importation into London after 1905. Working backwards, the third mark indicates the silver content (sterling), and the second is the date mark for 1918. The first hallmark, however, escapes me. Had the watch case be made in London then I would have expected it to be the mark of the fabricating metal smith (also called the Responsible Mark). It is not and I am adrift – does anyone know what the “GS” represents?

Mark,

This mark belongs to George Stockwell, who was one of the most prolific casemakers of the time, and seems to have done a booming business in these smaller transitional period cases. Among my "trench watches" with English marks, fully two/thirds have GS marked cases, including a hunter and a demi-hunter, both apparently originally made as wristwatches.

I recently saw an auction attributing this mark to the Goldsmith's and Silversmith's Co., who did make a few wristwatches cases, but examples I've seen feature an elaborate cartouche with their full name. I believe this attribution was either wishful thinking or outright fraud on the seller's part.

Regards,

Cary

Cary;
Thanks very much. My thoughts had been turning more towards the country of orgin. Do either of you know where I can learn more of about this man without searching a genealogical site?

Take a look at this one

http://www.silfren.com/Teastrainers/M1708.htm

However, check this one too. It list him as an import agent and the letters look different.

http://www.925-1000.com/dlLondon2.html

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Silver-a...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This case by George Stockwell is pretty awesome.

Sheila;
Thanks for the links! The Silfren link is especially interesting as it indicates his company. The second and third links are also interesting. As you have pointed out the punch mark illustrated in the second link is slightly different and yet still attributed to George Stockwell. Of what I can see of the third hallmark it is altogether different yet again and still attributed to George Stockwell! I wonder if George Stockwell (as the second link indicates) was the importer and not the actual manufacturer. The three different marks could have been assigned to three seperate agents of Stockwell's. If a problem arose then Stockwell himself would be able to identify the responsible person. It is an interesting conjecture, but one on which no credibility can be hung without knowing more about Stockwell's organization.

Mark,
I just got back from SC, so sorry for the delay.

I can tell one thing about this guy, he sure made some high dollar items, and the workmanship is really fine on many of his items.

I think that maybe he was the actual maker, because when the latters are in a symbol and listed, they are usually the MAKERS MARKS, so I believe they are his as the maker. Of course, it is true that he may have had them made for him too, but whatever it is, his items are really beautiful.

I like your wristwatch, it's a nice example of the period, and looks great too!

Also, one of the links says he was in London and gave the street, but as you mentioned, it may have been one of many of his companies, so I will let you know if I find anything else about him.

I do like a great search!

Sheila;
I hope that your trip to South Carolina was pleasant. I have been busy too, but I think that most of my efforts should be categorized as “spinning my wheels”. I have been re-reading the thread and the speed with which both Glyn and Cary answered my initial request indicate that George Stockwell was indeed a well-known and prolific watch case supplier during WWI. In fact, Cary’s comment,

“Among my "trench watches" with English marks, fully two/thirds have GS marked cases ... .”

has me wondering if George Stockwell was both an import agent AND a jeweler. The Online Encyclopedia of Silver Marks, Hallmarks & Makers’ Marks (http://925-1000.com/dlLondon2.html) lists Stockwell as an Import Agent, but guilloche enamel work is usually undertaken only by master jewelers. The little sterling case is pleasant to look at, but one that does not need to be made by a master jeweler. The contradictions make me uncertain. I have notes pending with The Goldsmiths’ Guild and the City of London Archives, so I can only hope that my inquiries are not ignored and that I receive some solid responses. I will let you know if I get any information of note.

Mark,
Your right, because I forgot that sometimes makers marks were later used as simply trademarks like ours, and only represent maybe a seller or jeweler. In the early days they were only the MAKERS personal marks, but after looking at some other items, I remembered that later they did indeed become much like our trademarks, and some only used them as one or the other. So it will be interesting to see what your request for information will tell us. I love getting more information to add to the list of makers I have listed already.

It will be nice to collect a lot of foreign information, it will come in handy for sure.

Only problem is, my notes are getting pretty heavy, and my old book has so many notes that I will need a new book soon. (if I can find one)

When you hear from them, yes, do let me know.

Sheila;
Below is part of the response that I received from The Goldsmiths’ Guild. Answers to some of the ‘fine point’ questions which I raised are still pending, but I thought that perhaps the Culme citation, in particular, would be of interest to you.


To recap, I had confirmed the marks and identified the sponsor as George Stockwell, and cited as my source 'The directory of gold & silversmiths, jewellers & allied traders 1838-1914' by John Culme (Woodbridge, Antique Collectors' Club, 1987, 2v).
.
.
.
By the beginning of the 20th century the maker's mark was often referred to as the sponsor's mark but I do not think it was officially referred to as the sponsor's mark until after the Hallmarking Act 1975.
.
.
.
As an import agent, George Stockwell would have been importing items for sale in this country. Watchcases and other silver or gold items (including those bearing foreign marks or no marks at all) required assaying and hallmarking - including a maker/sponsor mark - in order to be legally sold in the UK.

An intelligible response from the Archive Office regarding Stockwell’s organization may possibly reveal why so many differently shaped escutcheons surrounding the “GS” initials can be found. As I get more, I will pass it on.

Sheila;
The evidence in response to the query of whether or not George Stockwell was an actual manufacturing jeweler appears (thus far) to be negative. I received this image today from the Goldsmiths’ Guild which was taken from “The directory of gold & silversmiths, jewellers & allied traders 1838-1914” by John Culme (Woodbridge, Antique Collectors' Club, 1987, 2v). The image is on the ‘fuzzy’ side (for which my correspondent apologized), but by my reckoning, there were 4 locations in London and 1 each in Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Nottingham as well as 2 locations in France (Paris and Boulogne-sur-Mer). Additionally, the organization did business with Tiffany's in New York. The need to satisfy the large well-to-do clientele which would have made such growth possible de-mystifies the wide range of articles that we have seen thus far (a wristwatch case, a tea strainer, and a pendant watch case). This is not, however, “smoking gun” evidence.

A response to my question from the Guildhall of London (the location of Stockwell & Co.’s main office was outside of the jurisdiction of the London Archives) may hold the key. Right now, however, the evidence suggests that as a centrally run operation, Stockwell & Co. may have provided watch cases as a supplier to World War I soldiers and not as a manufacturer.

Mark,
Gets better with each post. Just to get ANY informtion is fantastic. I'm still really curious about the other mark that looks like a U, I know I have seen that before, but can't remember. I know it's about the importation into London, but can't find where I have that mark listed. Do you have a link to that information, or where I can find it?

I often keep checking on makers marks that I'm interested in, and if you sometimes wait a month or so, you will find additional information on the net, in a general search.

Thanks for the additional information.

Sheila, If you look at this link

http://www.925-1000.com/dlLondon.html

you will find that the 'U' was a London import mark.

Also, see this,

http://www.925-1000.com/importmarks.html

THANK YOU Irwin!

I knew, that I knew that sign, and I HAD misplaced that second page. Thank you for giving it back to me.

Bless,

Sheila;
Sorry to be "asleep at the switch", but the Topic Notification System is not sending me notifications any longer. Anyway, one thing that has piqued my curiosity while I have been awaiting answers to my queries is the number of different cartouches used for surrounding the initials "GS". Do you know if the different cartouches may have been used to represent the different branch locations?

Sheila;
I received this today from the London Guildhall. It adds the address of a bonded warehouse in London (163 Aldersgate street EC1), and provides a rudimentary timeline. Of particular interest are the presence of Henry Stockwell (father, brother, paternal uncle (?)), the primary role of Messageries Nationales de France before WWI, the expansion of the company prior to WWI, the resumption of business with Messageries Nationales de France after WWI, and the establishment and demise of the bonded warehouse. I have other avenues of inquiry to follow and I only hope that they are as fruitful. The question of the silver mark cartouches still ‘nags’ at me; do you have any thoughts regarding them?

I have made sample searches in Post Office London directories and found the following entries:

1880 [No relevant entry]

1890 Stockwell, Henry, shipping agent & agent to Messageries Nationales de Franc, 15 King Street, Cheapside EC

1900 Stockwell & Co., shipping agents & agents to Messageries Nationales de France, 15 King Street, Cheapside EC

1910 Stockwell & Co Ltd., shipping agents & agents to Messageries Nationales de France; chief office, 16 & 18 Finsbury Street, EC; 15 King Street, Cheapside; 8 & 10 Beak Street, Regent Street W

1918 Stockwell & Co Ltd., shipping agents & agents to Messageries Nationales de France; chief office, 16 & 18 also at 13 & 15 Finsbury Street, EC2; 8 & 10 Beak Street, Regent Street W1 & bonded warehouse, 163 Aldersgate street EC1

1926 Stockwell & Co Ltd., shipping agents & agents to Messageries Nationales de France; chief office, 16 & 18 Finsbury Street EC2 & 25 Beak Street, Regent Street W1

1936 [No entry]

We do not hold any records or archives of the company in this library.

Great topic Mark and excellent information published here, thanks everyone for your input.

As far as I'm aware, George Stockwell was an 'importer' (described as 'Foreign Agent')rather than a jeweller or casemaker.
He was indeed prolific in that respect, and a significant number of my own silver watch cases bear his mark.

I have the NAWCC supplement(by Philip Priestley. Bsc, Liveryman, Worshipful Company of Clockmakers)which I refer to constantly.
I would recommend the publication to anyone if they can get it.

It has recorded, a significant number of casemaker's marks, but I believe it to be incomplete, as Stockwell is only recorded in the book from 1907 up to 1918 and mainly at one address (16/18 Finsbury Park, London), whereas I have cases stamped with his mark much later than that - your latest posting would suggest that Stockwell & Co was indeed trading until much later - which is certainly a big help to me (Thanks for that Mark!)!.

As well as being listed as a 'foreign Agent', he is also recorded trading as a 'Watch Importer' at the same London address, plus that of '227 Corporation St Birmingham' - for which a slightly modified stamp is used.
The mark for his London address uses a rectangular shield with clipped bottom corners, whereas the Birmingham address has recorded to it an unclipped rectangular shield - both have a small raised dimple at top centre.
He does have one slight change in 1907 (London), where the same clipped shield is used, but instead of Capital letters, he has used a 'copperplate' slyle script.

I wouldn't read too much into variations in stampings though, I would guess that the company would legally have had to record a design for each of the premises it worked from, especially if different assay offices had to be used - and if a punch broke or needed replacement.

Add to this, any variations of design of a particular shield could also be simply down to wear and tear!
Stockwell must have marked hundreds of thousands, if not millions of articles over his trading period - and those punches were hit manually into a metal product by a hammer, so even though used on softer materials, friction and compression (plus cack handed operators) would cause the design of the shield to change slightly over time.

Often you will find shield edges incomplete or with apparrent bits added, which would most likely be caused by a worn punch or bits broken off the edges.
Stockwell's punches weren't unique in this defect.

I doubt Stockwell and Co has any time to run a retail Jewellery business given his prolific importing, it's more likely he was taking trade orders from UK workshops and retail Jewellers, and fulfilling them via contacts amongst his French and Swiss casemakers.

Just my thought for what they're worth.

Best regards

John

John;
WELCOME BACK!

If I did not know better, I would say that you and the Goldsmiths’ Guild were ‘ganging-up’ to squash my thoughts about the stamp cartouches . I received this from them today:

Having looked at the registers for George Stockwell I can see that he entered 22 marks, all very similar. I cannot explain this and the assay office records do not give reasons why new marks were entered or re-registered.

22 marks is an awful lot, but between wearing-out and damage I can well understand the need for them.

As for the retail aspect, I am a bit uncertain. One of the locations was Regent Street which is mostly prime retail space. I question that Stockwell & Co. would want to pay a retail level rent for a non-retail operation. To throw in the pot of uncertainty is the fact that there were branch locations also in Birmingham (which you mentioned), Liverpool, Manchester and Nottingham. I do not know about Nottingham, but the first three cities were all major centers of manufacturing during the Victorian period. Rhetorically, the question arises: did Stockwell & Co. retail to the local gentry, or did they supply the jewelers who did? Personally, I do not know if it is important to know.

What may of interest (and I am not a collector of military watches) is that if the various cartouche designs were specifically assigned to the individual branches, would they reflect the different locations of WWI troop musters?

Many thanks for the welcome back Mark, much appreciated. Must confess, it's nice to have unfettered access to my own pc to trawl the boards again!

Gang up on you .......... nah, wouldn't dare my Friend!
I generally like to take a sideways step when looking at questions why stamps change etc and look at other reasons which could affect their issue.
Just tossing other ideas into the pot really.

I know Fleet St is a prime retail area now, but back then it may not have been, especially if you consider the value of housing then and now - even the sale of a 16 x 8 lock-up garage in central London these days would practically buy a mansion in the North of England.

Most individuals these days could only dream about having a workshop in central London, but in those days, there were hundreds or more individual craftsmen beavering away in their own shops, so a Fleet St address for Stockwell may not have been such a big deal!
Just a few sideways thoughts again!

I'll check some maps later when I've some more time, but my guess is that Fleet St isn't too far from the Clerkenwell area of London where the vast majority of watch and casemakers worked pretty much throughout the life of the UK watchmaking industry.

It's certainly possible that Stockwell retailed watches, and I certainly wouldn't rule it out, but I'd still go with a purely trade connection to the main watchmaking industry.

Keep digging though, far from information on him being unimportant, any history we can get on traders such as this can only do good to the Horological fraternity as a whole - I'd wager that practically every collector on the planet either has, or had at some point, a watch with a case bearing that 'GS' crest in one form or another.

I would doubt that crest styles would give any clues about troop movement during WW1 though, as conscripts and volunteers alike continually endured the perverse predeliction of our Armed Forces to post them to a part of the country they had no wish to go!
Many of the troops were also given watches as gifts by family, which may have borne no actual relationship to the area where they served.

I'm no expert here though, so it's probably a question better posted in the military forum, as I'm sure plenty of our experts there would have some useful comments to make.

Certainly an interesting point you make though!

Best regards

John

Mark, John and Sheila,

I've been reading this thread with interest since my initial contribution. I'm pleased to see the fruition of Mark's efforts, and also pleased to see John contributing again.

I'm happy to see the issue cleared up that Stockwell was an import agent, and not a watchmaker, case manufacturer or jeweler. It does make sense to me that he wasn't a reteiler, becasue, out of hundreds (or more) of "GS" cases I've handled, I've never seen one with a Stockwell (or GS) marked dial or movemement.

He does seem to have been a bit visionary (or at lest aggressive) in his importation of early wristwatches. Some of mine have proofs indicating importation as early as 1913.

And Mark, just to echo John's opinion, while Regent St. is today a sea of high end retail, there is still some workshop activity there, particularly towards the North end as you move away from Piccadilly Circus.

I also concur with John's opinion that there is likely no significance to the different stamps used over time, and particularly I doubt that there is any military connection, as these watches would have been stamped upon importation into England, not upon sale or issue. None of these have appeared to me to be "officially issued" military kit either, as the British have long been fanatic about stamping military property marks on their issue equipment.

Good job to Mark, and to all who've added to this thread.

Thanks,

Cary

John, Cary, Sheila et al;
Had it been a snake, it would have worn-out its fangs biting me! Cary, I think that you may have hit the nail squarely on the head regarding the military markings. All military organizations (not just the Brits) brand everything they issue because it is the property of the government. My thought had been, that as a private company, Stockwell & Co. would have imported its goods into London (where the home office was located) and then stamped the appropriate “GS” mark on them for whichever branch location was to be the ultimate destination. (The various cartouche designs would function as a corporate inventory record for the different branches). Then, under contract to the military, the company, from the closest branch to the muster site, would issue the watches (likely only to the line officers). It sounds good, but it all falls apart, because the cases (the sterling that could be sold and melted-down) were not marked in any fashion which would identify them as property of the military.
John;
Regent Street really is really not all that far from the Clerkenwell area (Fleet Street would have been a better location) and as Cary has pointed-out the “GS” appears nowhere but on the case. I think that this sounds the ‘death-knell’ for any consideration that Stockwell & Co. was a watchmaker.

Mark,

Far from a snake wearing out its fangs biting you, I'd say you're more in danger of it licking you to death

I personally think the information you've researched and published here is fantastic, and has certainly brought forth information I never knew about Stockwell.

I certainly don't have enough spare time to do the sort of research and follow up's that you have done in this thread, and I think I can safely speak for many of the readership, that they would find it difficult too.

Thanks a million Mark ........ and put the Snake serum away, you won't need it as far as I'm concerned!

You never know ....... a 'Stockwell' watch may just surface yet ....... stranger things have happened in this life!

Best regards

John

If you check here, you will see GS also represents other makers too.

http://www.925-1000.com/dlLondon2.html

I also found
Stockwell & Co. all on High Street, Woodford Green, in the Kelly directory of Essex, for three different years. 1894, 1899, 1902.

I can't post that one, it takes a log in membership to see it.

Sorry for the delay, I don't get the e-mails anymore.