And movement...6 size,15jewels KW/KS made in Le locle ,Switzerand,around 1885/1886.I do not know the manufacture...

Andrea

Andrea, the hallmarks are a bit of a puzzle at the moment.

The upright Bears correspond to the Swiss marks, but the castelated style shield appears very similar to that used by the Edinburgh assay office.
I've gone through my International hallmarks book and found nothing else quite as close.
Certainly nothing in the European or Swiss illustrations that I have here anyway.

If it is the Edinburgh mark, then the closest date mark I can find to that on your watch case is for 1850.
Maybe other hallmark experts with better resources than I have can offer something more definite.

1850 wouldn't be out of the way for this watch with it being key wind/set and also a cylinder type escapement.
Unless you can find a makers mark on the movement anywhere, it's unlikely you'll ever find who made it.

Bear in mind too, that when Kays took over the Skarratt business they will have bought any remaining stock also, which most probably included imported movements and cases.
You watch Could pre-date the Kay involvement but have been re-dialled with one of a later period bearing the Kays logo.

A lot of lateral thinking is needed with this stuff at times.

A very nice example though, and that key is beautiful.

John

John,
I did some research in the past months about the marks contacting the Swiss Assay office and the Assay office of Scotland.The Swiss Assay office confirmed the case was made in Switzerland bearing the certifications marks (2 bears standing) silver 0.935 purity and the "little Bear standing" of Le Locle Assay mark office that made the certifications.On he contrary,the Scottish Assay Office e-mailed me that those were not Edimburgh marks(scottish) and that probably were the case marks or the marks of the company.The Tower may represents the 'Broadway Tower' in Worchestershire while the Gothics letters inside each tower looks like a "W" "J" and the one of the bottom not clear.Probabily "Worcester,Jones and Kay or Locle"...?
When Mr. Kay bought out John Martin Skarratt his company was registred already as "Kay & co.Ltd" and the year was 1896.
This watch has the marking 'Kay,Jones & Co.",and according to Kays Heritage records,that was the first bussiness started by Mr.Kay with an Architect named Jones.This jewerly and watch bussines started around 1886 and ended in 1890.
My guessing is this watch was made and cased in Switzerland but the only thing i do not undertsand is how it does not bears the English "importing marks"?Maybe made and sold in Switzerland to someone and then later brought to ENgland?..I love mistery and history...!!
Here is the picture of "Broadway Towar" where you can notice the simiarity with the marks on the case.

Andrea

I had my doubts about the Edinburgh look alike hallmark Andrea, but I can't find anything else that looks like it - not even in the casemakers listings I've got.

If the mark was registered with the Goldsmiths Company in the UK by Kays, it would have been listed I think in the book I have.
Could be a Swiss makers mark though I guess.

You need to ID those marks though, as it will at least nail down the date of the case for certain.
The Kays engraving could have been done anytime by any skilled engraver, so I wouldn't hinge the dates around that.

Ditto the dial, Kays could have had them fired by the dozen if they were using a stock ebauche, as the dial pins would be in a uniform postition - and trust me, if you had a hundred Swiss movements on the bench and a hundred assorted dials, you'd be lucky to match up even 5% that fitted.
The dial would almost certainly have been made in the UK.

I'm not sure of the dates, but complete watches that were imported were subject to swingeing import taxes making them uncompetitive.
Watches in bits though were (AFAIA) exempt, so the Swiss got around this by shipping them into the UK in 'Kit form'.

It's quite likely your watch came to the UK in parts and was then assembled by Kays at some point.
The case, dial and movement could well be from different periods.

John

Andrea, just been trawling my trademark books again, and the style of the hallmark with the 'Standing Bears' was used by the Swiss from 1893, the earlier style from 1892-83 has a plain oval shield surrounding the figure.

Still no luck with the tower shield though, may be worth posting a photo on a dedicated hallmark forum.

I did subscribe to one of the 'Yahoo' groups a while ago, will see if I can dig out the link.

John

John,thank you very much for your research!

here is a link i found very interesting:

http://poincon.blogspot.com/

Many thanks for that link Andrea, it's now bookmarked for future use.

You helped me find an elusive Swiss hallmark for Neuchatel (pre 1880) with that site and the origin of one of my watches.
The design was in my hallmarks book, but I'd passed it over as it was shown in a completely different style.

Many thanks again.

John

Johm,my pleasure!That is what this site is about.
You owe me a beer ciao!

Andrea