I wonder if any of you experienced guys can point me to the likely source of this pocket watch I acquired recently. Two pics that don't add much for me, but hopefully someone will have seen similar before.

The case is base metal, probably originally gunmetal all over as the inside of the case is still the dark grey stamped ACIER (which I take to be steel or metal) and a group of numbers. The outside of the case shows patches of what might have been the gunmetal coating. The movement (pic to follow as I can't seem to get two images to load up)is of good jewelled quality but is completely unmarked apart from the usual "fast and "slow". The fact that this is in English might or might not be relevant. The dial is 44mm and in good condition, but is also completely unmarked.

I received the watch in the mail, gave it a quick check and wound a couple of turns and it sprung to life and it has kept good time for the last two hours. When it stops I will leave it until it has been cleaned and oiled.

Any ideas please? I am UK based by the way.

and the pic of the Movement

Looks Swiss to me, any markings under balance wheel?
back them was very common not to mark watches by Swiss makers.But lets wait for others to chip in.

Hi Peter - yes I had sort of assumed that it was Swiss, but the fast & Slow made me wonder for a short while if it was American.


There are no markings under the balance wheel, in fact no other markings anywhere. At some stage I might take the movement out and have a look under the dial. Although it doesn't show in the pic the single case screw is damaged and will need care to avoid problems - so not rushing it.

Would one date it early to mid 20th century?

Sometimes its marked with small picture on movement i.e. lighthouse, closer look to movement would help.

Hi Rafal, I have searched the back plate and the area below the balance with an eye glass and apart from the "fast" and "slow" markings for regulation it is completely free of any markings. The dial is also without any markings except the Roman numerals, minute a second markings.

The case has the "Acier" stamped in the inside back and both the inside back and dust cover have a number stamped in - 4523904 and below that 4500
The inside of both back and cover also have a small letter "L" stamped in them.

The only other marks are on the inside of the back and appear to be faint service marks - 4 of them.

I am sorry I can't take better photos

Hi, as you thought the "Acier" translates to steel, I would think that the most likely place for a mark which you haven't checked is under the dial, but if the screw is damaged then it might not be worth the risk. Sorry I can't help more, maybe someone else can.
-Joe

Hi Joe, Thanks for the conformation on "acier". I will have a go with looking under the dial, but in slower time. Apart there being some marks there, my only chance is that someone recognises the style of movement.

David, If you collect pocket watches, I would strongly recommend your joining our group. I took the liberty of manipulating your movement view to try and make a better guess about the watch maker.

While I see little indication of the actual source, I join in saying there MAY be a "Maker's Mark" or name under the dial. In fact though, the workmanship and casing of the watch indicate it was a Swiss Export Market (to England) watch sold with that Gun Metal Case as an affordable, but well finished 15 Jewel Movement. With a good service, you may be quite surprised at it's performance. The screwed in Jewel mounts and nifty little click and spring arrangement point to a more responsible maker who probably finished this with Guild-supplied parts.

David, Thank you for your comments and the manipulated image. It is much clearer.

I said in an earlier comment that the single case screw was damaged and would require care, but on closer inspection it is simply a screw with a flat side which turns about 15 deg clockwise to allow the movement to clear the case. I am no watchmaker (though reasonably handy as we Brits say)and when I tried to ease the movement clear of the stem it would not do so. I think it must be a Swiss movement which I gather is less easy to deal with in this respect - so looking beneath the dial will have to await a visit to my tame watchmaker when I get it serviced.

If I get more into my watches then I will no doubt join up in the coming months.

Thanks again.

Hi David, nice to see another Brit, to remove the stem you may need to loosen the screw just below it by a few turns (Think I've circled it in the image). Once you've done this you might find it easier to remove the stem. Just going to add to David's comment that the group really is great even over here, whilst postage adds a bit to anything you buy in the auctions there are still plenty of bargains, and the rest of the forum is well worth the membership fee. Hope I'm right about the screw,
-Joe

Joe you are right.
David one and a half turn then try to twist back and forth the stem with a gentle pull - if it does not come out another half turn and repeat.
It is for sure a swiss watch but those models made for the british or american market have sometimes a different plate layout and are hard to identify, Try to get pictures from the dial plate.

Regards
Gerald

Thanks very much Joe and Gerald for that good advice. I have managed to get the movement fully out the case and now back in for protection. I realised that it would be foolish to try removing the hands (especially the minute) without a proper hands removal tool. So that goes on order and I will just have to be patient which is not normally one of my virtues.

On a different front - I posted the pics over at Watchuseek and Hartmut Richter who is one of the Zenith forum moderators pointed me to an amazingly similar Billodes movement -

http://zenhitsite.monsite-orange.fr/page7/index.html

scroll down to first page of movement images, bottom left one - calibre 19 - 270

Hartmut points out this one is pin set whereas mine is stem set, but apart from that the plate shapes and screw positions are identical.

Since I am a bit of a Zenith fan (and wear a Zenith elite as my everyday watch) it would be great if it turns out to be a Billodes movement. I already have a 1920 Zenith pocket watch as well.

I can hardly wait to get that dial off and have a look at the front plate.

I will keep you posted. I have just joined the group

Hi David

Welcome to the IHC 185

Perfect match! Zenith was the most likely maker of the watch I had in mind but I could not get the picture of the movement. Thanks to Hartmut.
The bottom of the picture reads 'hour set by lever, pin or pendant'

You are absolute right about the proper tools. Keep in mind that it needs a bit of trainig to use them. The best advice would be to take a cheap movement with a demaged dial as playground first.

Regards
Gerald

Hi Gerald,

Thanks for the welcome.

Yes I think your advice is very sound about having a go on something less worthy.

The irony is that I bought this movement for £4 on eBay with a view to slowly taking it apart for practice, only to find that it was a running watch of some value (at least in horological terms).

I have a tame watchmaker who has serviced a few pocket watches and a clock for me. I will ask him if he has any scrap movements to have a go at. He has encouraged me to have a try at simple work. Everyone has to start somewhere, but I don't want to damage anything I work on!!

Thanks again.

Good luck David, I'm like you in that I only do small jobs, I was lucky and met a watchmaker who is slowly but carefully helping me to learn. If you don't find any movements then you could have a look around one of the antique fairs here, there's normally some around.
-Joe

Hi Joe, Thanks. Yes I must get on and learn a bit more. If only I didn't have too many other interests to go at.

I have been fascinated by timepieces since I was a boy and I shudder now to think of the PW's that I destroyed (and there is no softer word) more than 50 years ago when I took a couple of PWs apart and they never went back together again.I assume my parents disposed of the parts eventually. Pure vandalism. They were probably late 19th century English watches. The watches were my Grandfather's and luckily I still have one (an American Waltham - sterling silver case 1886) in very good running order. It has great sentimental value to me.

As you can see from my comments I live near Lincoln and they do have antique fairs at the Lincolnshire showground as well as at Newark. Trouble is, every dealer seems to know the worth of things these days and bargains are hard to come by - although I should think scrap movements might be available. I live quite near to Antique Centre at Hemswell.One room full of superb clocks, but very little in the way of watches.

I have a small collection of English Tea Cups/saucer/plate (trios). Years back I bought quite a few at bargain prices, but it is rare to catch dealers out these days.

Thanks again - Dave

I've only done the Lincoln fair once but I'm often at Newark standing, and I've never been to Hemswell but I've heard good things.I think at both of thos fairs there are some scrap silver dealers and they occasionally have bags of movements (Too late for the cases unfortunately). If not then I might be able to take some down to Newark the time after next.
-Joe