Hi All,

I'd appreciate any comments on this Tobias watch movement as I'm not too certain of its origins,I'm also aware there are fakes around bearing the name!
I'm disposing of it and don't wish to give anyone dud information.

The movement is Key wound and set from the back.
The escapement has a club tooth escape wheel and counterpoised lever, with Ruby jewel slips in the polished steel pallets which are riveted under the lever.
The dart and fork are machined out of the shaft of the lever itself.

My impression is it's Swiss, but mainly because of the bars and the engraving 'Avance - Retard' on the balance cock.

There are absolutely no other marks on the movement other than a serial number on the dial plate.
Does anyone recognise the style at all?

Regards
John

Movement 1.
J.W.

Movement 2
J.W.

All of the characteristics of this watch say "Swiss". I think it is a safe bet that this movement had no authorized connection to the firm of M.I. Tobias. My hunch, further, is that it was not a product sold by the related family businesses (such as Samuel Tobias who imported movements to New York). The quality appears less than I think they would accept and I do not recall hearing of him using Swiss movements.

Jerry,
Thanks for the comments, I've since done a bit of digging around on eBay, and come up with several examples of identical movements - some cased, some not.
Appears the movement is probably by M.J.Tobias Liverpool.
Don't know if this company is linked in any way to the U.S. enterprise though?

Any comments on that anyone?

Regards
John

As far as I know there was no M."J". Tobias. This name, along with the Liverpool inscription was intended to deceive buyers into thinking these Swiss-made movements were the product of the well-respected genuine Liverpool firm of Michal Isaac Tobias.

Thanks Jerry,

The only Tobias watchmakers I can find listed in either Bailley or Loomes are in the early 1800's and way before the club tooth escape wheel was invented anyway.

Although English lever watches were converted to use the club tooth wheel escapement (info courtesy of David Penney), the types were largely 3/4 plate movements, not the bar variety anyway.

I can see how use of the name was intended to deceive people!

There are several watches listed on eBay, and few of them actually have any engraving on either the movement or case, so how did they authenticate the watches - unless they're scamming folks too!

Take a look, this is but one example, others are listed by UK and German sellers and many in the USA -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&it...=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=017

John.

Regarding the bar movements that appear on eBay, there may be a few sellers who really know what they have but are willing to allow the deception to continue, but I believe most are falling for the inscription just as buyers were 150 years ago.