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Fusee question ? (onion case) "Click" to Login or Register 
IHC Member 376
Watchmaker
Picture of Samie L. Smith
posted
Can someone help me date this watch also do anyone know anything about the maker..

 
Posts: 3208 | Location: Monticello, Kentucky U.S.A. | Registered: June 24, 2004
IHC Member 376
Watchmaker
Picture of Samie L. Smith
posted
pic2

 
Posts: 3208 | Location: Monticello, Kentucky U.S.A. | Registered: June 24, 2004
IHC Member 376
Watchmaker
Picture of Samie L. Smith
posted
pic3

 
Posts: 3208 | Location: Monticello, Kentucky U.S.A. | Registered: June 24, 2004
IHC Member 376
Watchmaker
Picture of Samie L. Smith
posted
pic4

 
Posts: 3208 | Location: Monticello, Kentucky U.S.A. | Registered: June 24, 2004
IHC Member 376
Watchmaker
Picture of Samie L. Smith
posted
pic5

 
Posts: 3208 | Location: Monticello, Kentucky U.S.A. | Registered: June 24, 2004
Picture of Stephen L. Russell
posted
Are there case hallmarks ?

It looks to be about 1760's to me.

I can not make out the makers name in your photo.
 
Posts: 849 | Location: Victoria, British Columbia Canada | Registered: December 05, 2003
IHC Member 376
Watchmaker
Picture of Samie L. Smith
posted
Thanks Stephen i will try to get some better pictures of the hallmark and name..
 
Posts: 3208 | Location: Monticello, Kentucky U.S.A. | Registered: June 24, 2004
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Where Watches Are Born...

Cooksey Shugart's Complete Guide to Watches, 2005 Edition, Page 443


Prior to 1870 rough movements were 99% produced in the Prescot area then finished
in London, Liverpool, & etc.
Thomas Tompion started to number his watches in about 1680 & apparently being
the first maker to do so. Tompion had three series of numbers, Time only ordinary
watches up to about serial number 4600, repeaters or clock watches and alarms had
a separate series of numbers. Some watches signed Tho. Tompion, Edwd. Banger from
1701-08, also T. Tompion & G. Graham from 1711-13. George Graham continued the
series after Tompion's death. Daniel Quare also started to number his production
of watches about the same time. Therefore, for time only ordinary watches there
are no earlier serial numbers higher than the Tompion serial numbers listed below
for approximated year produced.

Thomas Tompion called the Father of English Watchmaking. Under his improvements
watches began to embody sound principles and accuracy. Introduced the division of
labor, standardized parts. The adjustable spiral balance spring, wide firm foot
to the balance cock. The key actuated regulator for balance spring. The minute hand,
the second wheel planted at center of movement, enamel dials, milled teeth for wheels
and pinions and a general apperance in the steel finish. He started to number his
watches in about 1680, therefore, there are no earlier serial numbers higher than
the Tompion serial numbers listed below for approximated year produced.

T. Tompion (time only watch) G. Graham Continues
Year Serial # Year Serial #
1682 400 1715- 4,600
1685 900 1725 5,200
1690 1,600 1735 5,600
1695 2,100 1745 6,100
1700 2,800 1750 6,400
1705 3,500
1710 4,000


Here is additional information...


Jan. 1675 Isaac Thuret introduced a model of a escapement that had a regulatory
spiral hairspring. Ca. 1680 Thomas Tompion made watches with a Minute hand.
In 1675 when the adjustable spiral hairspring was invented, the method of regulating
a watch changed. Before 1675 a watch was regulated by winding up, or letting down,
the mainspring by means of a endless screw driving wheel (illo. page 568). The endless
screw was fixed to the back-plate. At one end of the endless screw which was squared
to take a small key. The power of the mainspring is evened out over a period of
time by means of the fusee, however the variation in the strength of the mainspring
when regulated would alter the rate of the watch.

The term Oignon is the nickname of large domed bulb shaped watches, they start to
appear after 1675 & having some uniform construction features point to a source
of specialized workshops, (ebauches) thus becoming reasonably priced & improved
time keeping due to the adjustable Spiral hair-spring (see page 510 for illo.).
French Oignon watches wind from the front dial side and the balance bridge cock
has two screws & usually have domed shaped dials. English Oignon watches generally
wind from back & the balance cock use a single screw & foot & the dials
have a flat appearance.


Carefully examine Cooksey Shugart's Complete Guide to Watches, 2005 Edition, Page 569-570


Hope this helps!

Smile
 
Posts: 10552 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
Picture of Bernhard Schmidt
posted
The mvt looks English to me.

Stephen.
You guess 1760, why is that?
Don´t you think it could be a bit earlier. The square shaped pilars, weren´t they a little bit earlier? The framed balance bridge foot tells later than around 1690-1700. Why could not this mvt been made around 1720-1730? There are balance vings on this ones. These seems to have disapeard around 1750 and this one got small ones, ok 1740 but not a year later Smile.
I just guessing, what do you think? Eek Confused
Best regards!
Bernhard
 
Posts: 423 | Location: Västerås in Swedem | Registered: January 02, 2004
posted
I can't quite make out the maker. It looks like Royle, and the city is Liverpool. If this is correct, Baillie shows a Thomas Royle working in Liverpool in 1754.
 
Posts: 767 | Location: Los Osos, California USA | Registered: December 12, 2002
Picture of Bernhard Schmidt
posted
Ok, it seems I have been wrong! Sorry! I still would like Stephen to tell what at the photo is it that tells him it´s from around 1760. Got to learn something. Wink
/Bernhard
 
Posts: 423 | Location: Västerås in Swedem | Registered: January 02, 2004
IHC Member 376
Watchmaker
Picture of Samie L. Smith
posted
Thanks everone for the information ,,the single hallmark on the case is a H ,dial is marked Royle Liverpool and the movement is marked Burke Royle Liverpool ..a guy in canada sends me pictures of watches he wants info on i can most of the time help him ,,but i don,t know much about the fusee watches..
Looking at the few books i have on early watches i had a date of 1740-1760 so i guess i was close..
 
Posts: 3208 | Location: Monticello, Kentucky U.S.A. | Registered: June 24, 2004
posted
Samie,

The dial stlye, the balance cock shape, the mainsoring with the set-up underneath, the arabic numbers on the regulator, and the piliers between the plates all point to the 1750's or there abouts. If Royal is listed at 1756 then it is in all probabilities correct.. the bow is incorrect, a later replacement..

Bernhard,

While your observations are correct, it is very difficult to date precisley with out hallmarks.. While there are general rules about when different features came and went, some watch makers did not necessary change..the trade evolved very slowly...
 
Posts: 638 | Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin USA | Registered: November 22, 2002
posted
The word Oignon is french for onion.

Tom
 
Posts: 1060 | Registered: March 10, 2003
Picture of Bernhard Schmidt
posted
John and/or Stephen!
What is your conclution about the age of this movement without any hallmarks? There are hallmarks in the case but I do not have the watch here. If you could tell why you think it is what you think I would be very happy.
/Bernhard

 
Posts: 423 | Location: Västerås in Swedem | Registered: January 02, 2004
Picture of Bernhard Schmidt
posted
and sidewiew

 
Posts: 423 | Location: Västerås in Swedem | Registered: January 02, 2004
Picture of Bernhard Schmidt
posted
sidewiew #2

 
Posts: 423 | Location: Västerås in Swedem | Registered: January 02, 2004
Picture of Bernhard Schmidt
posted
dial, witch should be replaced in early days, such as the hands, or?

 
Posts: 423 | Location: Västerås in Swedem | Registered: January 02, 2004
Picture of Bernhard Schmidt
posted
case, with I think is original?!


Bernhard Schmidt


 
Posts: 423 | Location: Västerås in Swedem | Registered: January 02, 2004
Picture of Stephen L. Russell
posted
Bernhard,

That is a nice movement.It is earlier then the above watch. I think the dial and hands are wrong.

Does that little cut in square on the wrong dial have date numbers in it?

The case seems to be a English repousee pair case.
Pretty worn but many depicted Diana the Roman goddess of the moon and of the hunt.

This is a wonderful calender Dutch watch to me. And if I must put a date on it without knowing the maker..1730's and no later then 1750 but could/should be a bit earlier then my first conservative guess.

I would like to see under the dial...I think it would have come with a silver champleve dial originally.

All the above just 6.00AM pre coffee thoughts Wink

John and Jerry my have more for you.
 
Posts: 849 | Location: Victoria, British Columbia Canada | Registered: December 05, 2003
posted
For what it is worth, Loomes shows Paulus Bramer working in Amsterdam mid 18th century. That does not pin it down very well. The listing is followed by a C, which means clockmaker?
 
Posts: 767 | Location: Los Osos, California USA | Registered: December 12, 2002
Picture of Bernhard Schmidt
posted
Thank you guys!
Stephen
Yes it´s date.
I also definately think the dial and hands are not original. some day I will take the dial of and have a look. I just to mutch afraid to do a misstake on this one. It has ran in the family since 1890 when my great great great grandfather had it in his collection.
Interesting information about the case. What do you think of it´s age.
Why don´t you think the mvt is late 1600? What is it on this one that makes you believe 1730? Just asking for my education.

Jerry
Yes, and I have found a clock, from Paulus Bremer
Bramer clock
And then I found this pocket watch
http://www.bogoff.com/pocket/4871.html
...but I find the differenses between mine Bramer and the last one so huge that I wonder if it´s the same watchmaker. Just take a look at the signature on the plate. Not just in the shape but also how it is written. The "u" on mine is more like "v". I also think mine is earlier than this.
What do you think?
 
Posts: 423 | Location: Västerås in Swedem | Registered: January 02, 2004
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