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Ball Marked "SINGLE ROLLER" 18s Watches "Click" to Login or Register 
posted
Hello, I found this at the bottom of some old standard gauge Lionel Trains I bought today at the swap meet. While search to see what it was that I had found I came across this wonderful site. It's # 170162.

 
Posts: 3 | Location: San Diego, California in the USA | Registered: April 14, 2013
posted
Here's the movement.

 
Posts: 3 | Location: San Diego, California in the USA | Registered: April 14, 2013
IHC Life Member
posted
Randy,
It's a Hamilton Ball, 150,000 produced, but only 1,000 in 1901 when this was produced according to the online database.

Movement Serial Number:170162
Estimated Production Year: 1901
Run Quantity: 1000
Size: 16s
Jewels: 21j
Movement Configuration: Openface
Movement Finish: Nickel
Model: 0
Movement Setting: Lever
Adjusted: Yes
Adjusted to Positions: 6
Railroad Grade: Yes
Notes: Ball
 
Posts: 1003 | Location: Pleasanton, California in the USA | Registered: September 22, 2012
IHC Member 328
posted
Randy & Evan

Actual run quanity was 300, 170101-170400. Its an 18 sz Single Roller Double Sunk Ball & Co. The only other place you see these is in the 90xxx run.

90220

wonderful find,

Congrats & happy hunting
 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Life Member
posted
I'll defer to Bill as the online database I used is often notoriously inaccurate, and I am still learning.
 
Posts: 1003 | Location: Pleasanton, California in the USA | Registered: September 22, 2012
IHC Member 328
posted
It would make a nice addition to anyone's collection. Give us a heads up if you decide to sell it here on IHC or anyplace else. Many of us would be interested in it.

happy hunting
 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
posted
I want to thank everyone for the info, and if I do decide to let it go it will be posted here first.
 
Posts: 3 | Location: San Diego, California in the USA | Registered: April 14, 2013
Life Member
posted
Please add # 90557 17J
Marked: Adjusted and Single Roller
Ball & Co. Official RR Standard double sunk dial with inscription at 6'oclock.(small chip)

Hamilton display case


I need a regulator whip spring and screws if someone has a spare or source.

 
Posts: 84 | Location: Plano, Texas in the USA | Registered: July 28, 2013
Life Member
posted
movement

 
Posts: 84 | Location: Plano, Texas in the USA | Registered: July 28, 2013
Administrative Assistant
Picture of Dr. Debbie Irvine
posted

Richard,

Thank you for providing your movement number.

You will see it in the database compiled at the beginning of this topic.

One of the great features of IHC185 Membership is the ability to participate in our BUY AND SELL HERE, THE IHC185™ TRADING MART where you can ask for parts.

Please do consider becoming a full member!

Debbie

Smile
 
Posts: 4926 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
IHC Member 328
posted
Richard

I only follow the Ball and Co Watches so am not sure what happens with the Ball Watch Co after serial #170400.

There are 300 DS Single Roller between 170101-170400.
Another 150 between 90600-90750

And approx. 100-150 of them scattered in between 90201-90600. In this run, the ones that aren't marked Single Roller are marked "A" and Adjusted.

If you want to sell, you can [join IHC and sell it here.]

Otherwise, enjoy your watch and

happy hunting
 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
Administrative Assistant
Picture of Dr. Debbie Irvine
posted

One of the great features of IHC185 Membership is the ability to participate in our

BUY AND SELL HERE, THE IHC185™ TRADING MART where you can ask for parts, buy, sell or trade.

Please do consider becoming a full member!


Dr. Deborah L. Irvine
IHC Administrative Assistant
Membership and Marts Coordinator

Contact eMail: ihc185@roadrunner.com

Smile
 
Posts: 4926 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
posted
pics of my 18s single roller...

 
Posts: 312 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
posted
dial without bezel, no hairlines. both hands are plum in color with some tarnish.

 
Posts: 312 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
posted
movement

 
Posts: 312 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
posted
rear case cover

 
Posts: 312 | Location: New Jersey in the USA | Registered: February 13, 2011
IHC Member 328
posted
Joseph

What a sweet example! Amazing how well some of these have survived.


happy huntijng
 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
posted
Came across this ball in a lot I got. Serial number is 170218. Single roller marked BALL & CO CLEVELAND. I know nothing about these watches. The case is a STURDY NICKEL SILVER. THE dial is a double sunk HAMILTON dial. Is this not the orginal case or dial? Interested in any info on this. Also not in the data base.

Pictures are below
 
Posts: 3 | Location: Vermont in the USA | Registered: November 03, 2014
posted
Ball

[Movement number: 170218]

 
Posts: 3 | Location: Vermont in the USA | Registered: November 03, 2014
posted
Ball 170218

 
Posts: 3 | Location: Vermont in the USA | Registered: November 03, 2014
IHC Member 328
posted
Joe

It is definitely the wrong dial, Ball watches did not come with Hamilton marked dials. It should look like the first dial in this topic on Lindell's movement 170162 that shows the correct dial.

The replacement style case you have is of a much later issue than the movement.

happy hunting
 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Member 1124
posted
Hello Lindell or anyone interested in a newly discovered Ball Single Roller,

I haven't posted lately but am always lurking but I'm curious about a watch.

I have just acquired this watch, a Ball Hamilton 18S ORRS signed Single Roller marked Ball Watch Company, Serial # 170107. I do not yet have it in hand but should have it soon.

Lindell stated above that the lowest serial numbered Ball Watch Company example he's seen is # 170704. This one goes back almost 600 numbers earlier, and we see many higher numbers still marked Ball & Co . Makes you wonder about the system they used and decisions on which movements were to be finished.

This example has a horrible, looks like a worn and flaking metal dial simply marked "Ball". It is SS. It's housed in a well worn but attractive Keystone low shouldered base metal case with no visible previous screw marks. What say you ?


©harles
 
Posts: 126 | Location: South New Jersey in the USA | Registered: April 11, 2008
IHC Member 1124
posted
Oops, I forgot to attach the pic...


©harles


 
Posts: 126 | Location: South New Jersey in the USA | Registered: April 11, 2008
IHC Member 1124
posted
My new acquisition #170107 arrived today. Such a sad face on a beautiful movement, this one has obviously worked hard for it's living! The dial was probably replaced many years ago by an economical owner who may have damaged it and couldn't afford the proper replacement. (my theory) Likewise, a plastic crystal has replaced the glass one maybe broken in the same accident. Judging by the condition of the dial and crystal, it seems to have had many more useful years! There is a distinct ding in the front bezel right around the 5 marker but the bezel still unscrews on and off easily.

The main reason for this post is the issue of the serial number and the "Ball Watch Co." markings. Higher up in this same thread is a Single Roller serial #170162 which is marked like mine. We also see #170218 marked "Ball & Co."

Is mine the lowest serial # documented "Ball Watch Co." movement yet seen ? I have removed the barrel plate and the numbers do match. This watch runs very strong with great balance motion.

What say you ?


©harles


 
Posts: 126 | Location: South New Jersey in the USA | Registered: April 11, 2008
IHC Member 1124
posted
Front


©harles


 
Posts: 126 | Location: South New Jersey in the USA | Registered: April 11, 2008
IHC Member 1124
posted
Bezel off


©harles


 
Posts: 126 | Location: South New Jersey in the USA | Registered: April 11, 2008
IHC Member 1124
posted
Matching numbers


©harles


 
Posts: 126 | Location: South New Jersey in the USA | Registered: April 11, 2008
IHC Member 1124
posted
Just as the original owner, I would be interested in any leads on a more acceptable dial for this diamond in the rough. Thanks for looking.


©harles
 
Posts: 126 | Location: South New Jersey in the USA | Registered: April 11, 2008
IHC Member 2030
posted
Nice photos Charles
No idea as to the correct dial, in my opinion, that dial is fine Smile
Great idea on changing to glass christal
May be original?
 
Posts: 1089 | Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia in the USA | Registered: February 08, 2015
IHC Member 1124
posted
That dial is sad, but for now I like it as an example of a watch with a lot of character showing! For how grimy it looks I'm amazed at how strong it runs. I think the case and movement are original, this was a real working watch, and has probably been lying around for 40 years or more. A great candidate for restoration in my opinion.


©harles
 
Posts: 126 | Location: South New Jersey in the USA | Registered: April 11, 2008
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Hi Charles,

I always enjoy your posts, you raise interesting points.

The watch you found recently needs a case, hands and of course the dial to be an original style and therefore correct. It is quite likely that in recent years someone "picked it clean" of case, the hard-to-find hands and the near-impossible to find dial. Possibly you can run-down the individual components, you may have to "settle" for best that can be located. Study the image below this post and other correct examples shown earlier in this topic.

Problem details... Your present case is a replacement from 30 to 50 years later than the movement, the worn-down crown attests to the fact someone used it a great deal, how much or how little with this movement is anyone's guess. Those are generic replacement hands commonly found in watchmaker vials. Metal dials for Railroad Watches became available a decade or so later than your movement, beginning around 1910 and yours is a dial repainted various times, in a style dating to the mid 1920s or later. You might consider trying to find correct case, dial, hands and a few screws individually to eventually make a correct example of yours. Perhaps begin with "WANTED TO BUY OR TRADE" HOROLOGICAL ITEMS advertising (free with your membership) and post the image from this post to explain what you are seeking.

(Parenthetically... Another point of interest, the case on 170249 shown below this post and elsewhere is an early "Ball-Model-Style" case from before their 18-size cases bore the "Ball Model" marking. The bow, crown, and particularly "reflecting-ring" around the dial are features usually found together on cases Ball ordered as part of his exacting specifications. At the time 170249 was produced only the 16-size were beginning to go out in marked-as-Ball-Model Cases, those markings on 18-size were still a few years away.)

Your observation about the early "Ball & Co." for "Ball & Company" versus later "The Ball Watch Co." for "The Ball Watch Company" markings once again proves my oft-stated point of how these were not produced, finished, cased, timed or sold in anything approximating chronological order. And it also shows there are additional examples with additional fine-tuning details we are finding today that were not evident when this topic began practically fifteen years ago. Your 170107 moves numbers downward and adds to our ever-expanding data on these fascinating watches.

We can see that in the short turn-of-the-century time in which these marked as "Single-Roller" movements were produced "Ball & Co." slowly evolved to "The Ball Watch Co." along with other changes in markings. And the fact those marking changes did not occur chronologically, as proven by the movement numbers, is further evidence of how much manufacturing methods and business practices have changed over the last hundred-twenty years. Notice also how at times an earlier dial signature may have been combined along with a slightly later movement signature. As collectors, we prefer everything to match, but we must also consider and allow for variables. Example 170704 is a rare 21-Jewel movement (not a "Single-Roller") but with "Ball Watch Co" signature on movement and dial it was the lowest numbered example with both those features I had yet seen and it can be found chronologically in detail at the "Early Ball-Hamilton 18-size" link immediately below.

Further study of these and other features may prove interesting in...

Early Ball-Hamilton 18-size Images

Later Ball-Hamilton 18-size Images

...and other related topics.

This age of computers in which we live dictates everything is recorded precise, click-by-click order with no deviation. The manufacturer can tell you exactly how many vehicles like the one you drive were produced and the precise moment when yours rolled off the line. But, back then, such infinite details did not matter, they never even occurred to anyone, they were just assembling and selling watches.

Today we obsess over things that they never even noticed, but that obsession over details is much of the fascination in this wonderful hobby of ours. Thanks to Charles and everyone else whose curiosity helps to drive us deeper as... "We learn something new every day".

For those new to this, getting into details of "Ball Marked SINGLE ROLLER 18s Watches" one must begin at the beginning for a full appreciation of just how unique they are and why we draw attention to them.

Hopefully some of these musings might be of help.

Lindell

Wink


Correct style case, hands and dial on 170249 as an example...


 
Posts: 10527 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC Member 1124
posted
Lindell,

Thanks for chiming in on this one, your input is greatly appreciated by me. This is my first Ball, I've previously been a bit intimidated although always fascinated by the whole Ball phenomenon. Very, very interesting but so far I've been content to admire and view from afar. This guy Ball truly was a larger than life character who's legacy continues to unfold!

I now see that you certainly are correct about this watch being "picked clean". The task of restoring this to acceptable collector condition would be daunting. My original assessment about a sad face on a beautiful movement still holds true! I'm still happy with it given the price paid. This is my small piece of the Ball legend and I'll keep it as such. I'll be keeping my eyes open for suitable parts if and when they may show up.

I spent a few hours refreshing myself with the links you provided above on the Ball research forum threads. Some amazing watches and stories there! Especially when you consider that I believe most Ball watches were originally purchased as a working tool of the trade, not as a drawer dwelling status symbol.

As an aside, I have in my collection a Hamilton 990 ser #798296, when I recently looked it up in the Hamilton logs I see that it was originally sold to ... guess it ... yes, Webb C. Ball ! I was startled. These are the little factoids that I really love about this hobby and keeps one interested ! I know I needn't explain that to you but it's something for the newer generations to realize. Your knowledge and contributions to the hobby will be recognized and appreciated for a very long time !


©harles


"990"
 
Posts: 126 | Location: South New Jersey in the USA | Registered: April 11, 2008
IHC Member 1124
posted
The Hamilton log... see bottom line..


©harles


 
Posts: 126 | Location: South New Jersey in the USA | Registered: April 11, 2008
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