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[Movement number: 118356]

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Charlie
Nice watch and a early one, unusal to see a private label dial on a Ball.

Hi Charlie!
It is very unusual to see a private label like this on a ball watch without the name carried out on the movement. Very interesting. Can you share more pics of the case? Thank you for sharing.
Joel Sarich

Charlie, Is there a chance the dial is not original? Do you know the history on the watch?

Tom

Movement is signed "Ball & Co. as opposed to "Ball Watch Co.
Also the balance cap jewel is wrong.
Any 18s Hamilton dial will fit this movement so it may not be correct.

multiple patent dates?

Aloha

Ruby end cap on the balance staff?

Aloha Scott

Hi All:
The damaskeening pattern is that of the 21 jewel Ball-Hamilton movements.
Joel Sarich

thanks for all the posts, i don't think the dial is oringal ,but a perfact hamilton dial PL which would fit on a ball hamilton. i agree with Lindell that as being a 17j this pattern has not been seen on a 17j watch that i have ever seen, all the sunray pattern that i have seen only include the 21j and 23j , charlie

Lindell:
I have never seen another of this damaskeening pattern in a 17 jewel Ball - Hamilton before. The things we learn in IHC 185!
Cheers!
Joel

Here's an Update!

Charlie,

We submitted a Research Request to the Library for information on 118356 the number of your unusual movement. What you see below was developed using information provided to us...

The Hamilton ledgers show Ball watches beginning at 118001 as Grade 999 17 Jewels sold to Webb C. Ball of Cleveland, Ohio. From there on it is just dittos all the way to 119000. It does indicate October 3,1900 as the date 118356 was shipped to the Ball facility from Hamilton.

The list for the watches going to the Finishing Department are a little more interesting.

118001-050 are listed as 999 BLE
118051-075 999 ORC
118076-100 999 BRT
118101-125 999 BLF
118126-200 999 ORRS
118201-350 999 ORRS

118351-425 999 CE

118426-450 999 BLF
118451-475 999 ORRS
118476-500 999 ORC
118501-600 and all the way to 119000 they are just shown as 999

So the movement in question 118356 was referred to as a "999 CE" and on July 26, 1900 it went to the finishing department.

Now, if we can figure out what "999 CE" means then it it may help us understand more about your unusual movement damaskeening. One question is answered but then additional questions are raised. Just 75 movements were noted as "999 CE" and your 118356 is clearly one of them.

The information we see on that list also gives us a clue on just how rare some of the Brotherhood markings are. Looks like they were usually ordered just 25 at a time.

None of this is high production or common by any means!

Lindell

thanks to Lindell for the research, i have no idea what "CE" stands for either, but talking to my wife who collects "Barbies" she thought it meant, LOL "collector Edition". i got a real kick out of that, thanks for you help and keep up the great work you do, maybe some day we shall know what "CE" means. charlie

The name and city on the dial alone is still interesting. North Manchester had a big rail depot at one time. The Detroit, Eel River, Illinois, Cincinnati, The Wabash and Michigan (later Big Four) railroads all had to go through North Manchester. And Lavey & Son Jewelers & Opticians (their full name way back when) was I think the main (Only?) jeweler in this once very railroad town.

I talked to Lindell this afternoon about this watch, and I must admit that I have never seen a 17 jewel ORRS with Sunburst damaskeening. I looked through all my research information and could find nothing comparable. I did notice in the Ball section on page 152 of the current price guide there is a picture of a 17 jewel Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen with Sunburst damaskeening its serial number is #13020. This example here is a very interesting watch, I too have no idea what the C.E. means either.

Larry Buchan

Hmmm, a little pure speculation here.
Could the "CE" stand for custom engraving? I wonder if these movements could have been "private labels" for Ball to sell in his retail jewelry store, thus the "Ball & Co." engraving.

Hi Larry, Ed, thanks for checking into this watch and while i still have no idea what CE means it is still in the middle of brotherhood runs and has never seen before any collectors before that i have talked to, and only 75 made makes it only more interesting. if i could see another one made in a different serial number range, i may be able to discount its rarity. $13,000 was paid for a 23j of which only 100 were made recently and i wonder what this might bring?

put it up for auction on the site , and we can find out what she'll bring

Hi all, someone e-mailed about this watch today, so thought i'd just bring it to the forefront again,

Charlie

One went off on Ebay a couple of days ago. I was watching it but someone convinced the seller to do a buy it now deal

happy hunting

Recent siting on eBay of this Sunray 17 j

Its back up. interesting to see what it goes for.

happy hunting

[Movement number: 118354]

Bill, it went for only $355.

Lorne

Had a reserve on it. Seems unlikely it would be that low.

happy hunting