I am trying to nail down when Ball started and/ or stopped using replacement Barrel bridges without serial numbers on 18 sz Ball Hamilton ORC and BLE brotherhoods. I know this is a sensitive subject to some but believe that it was his common practice much like using the plugs on 16 sz watches and would be a useful fact to establish. I am pretty certain that prior to Ball Hamilton 42xxx that all BLE and ORC should have no serial numbers under the barrel bridge but have not had reports or seen examples in the 42xxx range or higher serial numbers.

Reports on BLF and BRT barrel bridges in that range would also be appreciated. I wonder if they might also be replacement bridges once they no longer had the unique damasceening found on earlier runs.

Joseph Pierzynski provided two barrel pics that illustrte that 21J BRT's in the 42xxx range have no serial # under the bridge and that 28632, a BLE also has no # under the bridge.

I note that in our Early Ball Hamilton section there is # 28755, an ORC and 42690, a BLE which I would expect to also have no serial # under the barrel.

Pics or reports would be greatly appreciated.

happy hunting,

I just discovered a falacious assumption that I have been working on. I always thought Ball had ORC and BLE Howards available until 1900 but in checking my references, I can find nothing later than mid 1896 that shows they were still available.

That would make the 14k and 28k runs of ORRS watches subject to the barrel bridge replacement also. The key for me then would be the dial. I note that there are no curly three dials available for the BLE's and ORC's. While that may not definitely prove that Ball didn't switch barrels prior to the 42K run, one should note that when he replaced barrels in the 90200-600 range, they did come with double sunk brotherhood dials just like the ORRS A's in that run had double sunk ORRS dials.

I'm not trying to debunk the ORC and BLE Hamilton movements, just trying to see if there is a way to differentiate those installed by Ball and those installed later.

In actuality, as there were fewer Hamilton barrel plates of ORC and BLE than there were Factory installed BLF's and BRT's, I suppose a case could be made that they are rarer and more desirable. But you still have to love the Brakewheel damasceening on the early BRT'S and the fancy damasceening on the early BLF's.

happy hunting

I share your affection for the early B of LF's fancy damaskeening, as well as the brakewheel damskeening on the early B of RT's. An example of each (42031 and 14856 respectively) are the nucleus of my Ball Brotherhood collection.

Ed,

Good for you Wish I had them in my collection!

Share a few pics of the movement and dial of 14856.

Do you know when the circular damasceened BLF's and BRT's first started to appear? I don't show any of them in my 42xxx range yet.

I just recently acquired 14856, I'll post some pics when I get around to photographing it. It has pierced hands and curly three.

Hi Ed, Hi Bill, Ed....I would also like to see your BLF. BILL... hope this don't throw a monkey wrench into things, I have a Ball & co ORRS with the WAVY TOP THREE sn# 28211, I removed the barrel bridge and it does have sn# 28211 on the underside. I originally thought it was a model 'A' but it is just a plain ORRS. regards Joe

Joe,

I would pretty much expect all the ORRS'S to have serial #'s under the bridge. Its the brotherhoods I am trying to pin down.

BTW: By Going thru the Hamilton factory records and referring to my observed data base, I have made some preliminary conclusions.

Keep in mind I am only tracking Ball & Co.

Hamilton shipped 600 17 J BRT & BLF thru serial numbers 42200. (later sightings might not be factory installed)

Of these about 60 have been observed or about 10 percent.

Using this ratio and noting that there have been about 40 BLE and ORC sighting reports for Ball & Co movements. They are about evenly split between 17J and 21J. I am guestimating that only about 400 of these replacement bridges were made.

Happy hunting

whoops, my misunderstanding Bill. Thanks for clarifing. regards, Joe

Hey Bil, aside from the 21j BRT and 17j BLE, I also have a 17j Ball & Co BLF SN 28462 which I just had serviced and is running like a top. I'll have a "peek" under the hood this weekend and let ya know if there is a serial # there. regards Joe

Joe,

You are building a great collection

Look forward to your peek, I bet it has the serial number as it came from Hamilton with that marvelous damasceening.

regards,

and

happy hunting

Hi Bill, I'll peek sunday as it is supposed to rain all day here so I'll have plenty of down time. I also like the demaskeen on the 17j BLF with circular on the outside and sunray in the middle, dial has the regular #3, NOt the wavy three. Hands are correct plumb pierced with correct seconds hand, in a clam shell case. regards Joe

Hi Bill, I peeked under the hood and your bet was on the money...... and interestingly enough the serial # 28462 is stamped but missed the mark a bit, you can see bottom portion of the number 8 and the last three digits.

top

face

movement

Over all a nice watch Bill, the dial has a chip by the #1 from someone trying to open the front cover but is otherwise very nice. After having the movement cleaned and a new mainspring installed and a few hours of my time adjusting the timing it now keeps railroad time (+/-3 secs per day) no matter how ya hang it. Case is a nice clam shell with no other case marks, has some brassing but no dents. Hope you liked the photos. regards Joe.

Joe,

Love the photo''s. It'll be a while before the stamp machine operator gets promoted to pinion hole punching .

Congrats on getting this in RR time shape! Very few of mine do that well. Most average about 7-8 seconds.

regards and

hppy hunting

Good one Bill, when I first flipped the barrel plate over I didn't think there were any #'s at all till I looked harder. He almost missed the entire plate for cryin out loud, he's no marksman thats for sure. lol Joe

Hi Bill, getting back to your comment on time keeping with these old watches. After having each of my Ball & Co watches cleaned I was amazed to find that there were a few notable reasons why the watch would not keep better time, although 7 or 8 seconds per day is AOK for a watch of this age. I noticed mostly poor balance motion dial up and verticle whenever the watch was differing in position by more than a few seconds per hour. To compliment a cleaning I always like to put a new mainspring in for starters. I usually found one or the other 1) balance poise was poor 2)proper height of the balance cock, which if not correct will cause too much or to little end play for the staff.... assuming the staff is good. Once we got both of those issues sorted out the watches were good to go and so was the balance motion in each position. Adjusting the watch after that was a piece of cake. regards Joe

Believe it or not, my 936 Ham Ball is my best time keeper, changing its position each day it was only off a few seconds in a week.

I will pass on your hints to Marty who does all my watch work. I am helpless/hopeless with mechanics or tools.

Expect to have BLE 42881 in hand this week and will get pics when Marty tears it down for me.

regards and
happy hunting

I hear ya Bill, the gentleman who works on my watches is a saint, as are all watchmakers!!

oh, and congrats on BLE #42881 !

Are the earlier Brotherhood watches with brakewheel damascening more valuable thean ones with circular outside and brakewheel inside?

How much more valuable is a watch with BRF or BRE or BRC on the case?

Are there records somewhere that show which serial numbers left ball with Brotherhood movements and dials?

Hope you experts out there can help me.

Hi Paul,
Question 1) I think the damaskeening you are referring to is called SUNRAY as there are no movements with a total brakewheel as the entire movement. You are referring to a 21J BLE or BRT movement with Sunray damaskeeing and a 17J BLF with sunray in the middle and circular damaskeening on the outer. BRT 17J movements have brakewheel in the center and circular on the outer. The jewel count affects price more than the damaskeening.
CASE Q #2) depends on the quality of the case and if it was done by WADSWORTH and has raised letters or are the letters just engraved on the cover.
Q #3) ALL Brotherhood movements had brotherhood dials when they left the factory. If you don't have a dial then it is either missing or you have a movement that someone put barrel cover on.

hope this helps.

The case is a Fahys 20 year gold filled case and it is engraved--not raised letters. Trying to figure out how much more a watch is worth with this type of case versus just a silveroid or gold filled without the engraving. I suppose anyone could have any case engraved--how does someone know it wasn't engraved at a latter date. More questions. Thanks

pictures please

Ok, 42881 is back from "Marty the magnificent" It had a broken staff, bent hairspring, and rust under the dial. Its gorgeous now. Barrel bridge has no stamped numbers.

The dial cleaned up real nice. some nicking on the extreme outer edging from 4-7min. two slight dimples around the cannon pinon hole (7:30 & 11)

I replaced the hands. The case is not original and has an extra screw mark. How does that happen? I would have thought there would have to be two extra screw marks if another movement was in there!!

Finally the movement. This is in real nice shape. the moisture that got under the dial, probably from a broken crystal, didn't get to the movement plates.

Oops, thats a pic of it while marty is fixing the staff. Here's a more complete pic

Coincidentaly, I have in my collection #42880 An ORRS immediately preceding this BLE.

42881 looks fantastic Bill, I hope you enjoy it and it is really cool that you have movement 42880 also, 115yrs old and you came up with two consecutive serial #'s (how cool is that)......... you shot all you luck with these watches, you'll never win the power ball now Bill.....lol regards Joe