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Ball Private Label 18-size "Click" to Login or Register 
Picture of Greg Campbell
posted
Here is a mismatched Ball private label that I kept just because of the movement. Finding a matching dial will be next to impossible but thought I'd share it anyway. The name on the label is KRUCKEMEYER & COHN, EVANSVILLE IND.

Any ideas what value this would have?
 
Posts: 117 | Location: Central Illinois in the USA | Registered: November 29, 2003
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Greg,

Originally this movement would have fronted a matching dial.

Unfortunately there are people who collect only the dial and may have caused such a separation. One could also argue the dial may have been replaced due to severe damage which of course is a possibility, but I tend to feel your dial is sitting in a plastic sleeve likely with the feet removed from it. Those of us who revere these watches find that practice absolutely abhorrent but I have seen such collections shown with pride as I stand there Eek looking completely shocked.

You can see some advertising listing Ball Time Inspectors toward the bottom of this topic...

CLICK FOR: Early Ball-Hamilton 18-size Images

Note that "Kruckemeyer & Cohn, Evansville, Indiana" appears on both the February 1897 and October 1897 advertisements provided by Larry Buchan in the aforementioned IHC185 topic. Since their store would have been in your general area I understand why you found it interesting. Seeing the case is apparently not original to the movement you might want to consider an exhibition case so you could more readily display the movement and name.

You may also find it interesting to closely examine details of 14927 which is also shown in that linked topic.

So far as value goes some collectors attach a considerable premium to and collect the Ball Time Inspectors watches but the problem is that means everything should match. Just a bit more of my nit-picking, the hour and minutes hands on your watch look to be the correct style but the seconds hand is a replacement. That dial is from the post-1906 period because of the bold numbers, including a "flat-top" on the number three along with no patent information.

If you could ever be so fortunate as to find a matching "Kruckemeyer & Cohn" dial that would be positively wonderful.

Best of luck to you,

Lindell

Wink
 
Posts: 10527 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator

Picture of Tom Brown
posted
If you are interested Kruckemeyer & Cohn are still in business is Evansville.

This is from the 1896 City Directory.

Tom

01
 
Posts: 5113 | Location: New Mexico in the USA | Registered: January 27, 2007
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator

Picture of Tom Brown
posted
Here is an add that I think is different from the ones Larry posted, it is from Locomotive engineers journal Jan 1896 & it lists Kruckemeyer & Cohn.

Tom

02
 
Posts: 5113 | Location: New Mexico in the USA | Registered: January 27, 2007
Railway Historian
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator
Picture of Larry Buchan
posted
Greg:

Great Ball Private-label movement, it's good to see a picture as it's worth 1000 words. Nice early Hamilton serial number.

Larry
 
Posts: 3340 | Location: Okotoks Alberta Canada | Registered: November 22, 2002
IHC Member 328
posted
Greg,

Market seems a little soft, there's one for sale right now.

[That one is Ball-Hamilton number 14613 which is marked "Wm. Kendrick's Sons. Louisville, KY." on matching dial and movement sold for $1,281.50 only on January 19th 2010 see attached images.]

Of course the ebay item has dial and movement condition issues, but still seems lower than one would have expected in the recent past.

Good news is that maybe we will be able to get a few more examples for our collections at a discount. Bad news is that maybe we will all go broke Smile

happy hunting,

 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Vice President
Pitfalls Moderator
IHC Life Member
Picture of Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
posted
That print is so small Tom!

Here is a more readable version:

J.R. Reed, Pittsburgh, Pa.
B.H. Steif Co., Nashville, Tenn.
Marcy & Co., Indianapolis, Ind.
August Bruder, Ft. Wayne, Ind.
C.C. Fried, Springfield, O.
H.J. Howe, Syracuse, N.Y.
R.H. Smith, Hinton, W.Va.
Maier & Berkele, Atlanta, Ga.
Jas. Allan & Co., Charleston, S.C.
Frank Hammond, Buffalo, NY
J.J. Gansel, Grand Forks, Dak.*
W.C. Davis, Elkhart, Ind.
F.F. Bonnett, Columbus, O.
W.D. Wilcox, Utica, N.Y.
Jas. Mix, Albany, N.Y.
Wm. Walcott. Toledo, O.
C.C. Gere, Urbana, Ill.
C.D. Peacock, Chicago, Ill.
H. Joseph, Mattoon, Ills.**
Eustis Bros., Minneapolis, Minn.
J.M. Bigwood, Terra Haute, Ind.
Harrison Joseph, Mattoon, Ill.**
Kruckenmeyer & Cohn, Evansville, Ind.
H. Jacard Jewelry Co., St. Louis, Mo.
Smith, Sturgeon & Co., Detroit, Mich.
Harrington & Freeman, Boston, Mass.
W.F. Fisher & Bro., Chattanooga, Tenn.
E.M. Hale, Lima, O.
J.C. Woelfle, Peoria, Ill.
Linn & Leedy, Wabash, Ind.
Ritter & Ryan, Muncie, Ind.
W.V. Foster, Tipton, Ind.


* Interesting that in 1896, the Dakota Territory hadn't yet been divided into North & South Dakota.

** Appears to be listed twice. Probable ad copy error.


Best Regards,

Ed
 
Posts: 6719 | Location: Southwestern Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: April 19, 2004
IHC Vice President
Pitfalls Moderator
IHC Life Member
Picture of Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
posted
Here's three names from Larry's first list that didn't appear on the later one above:

006.) H. C. Graffe, Fort Wayne, IN

009.) Harvey Fritz, Oil City, PA

011.) Michie Brothers, Cincinnati OH


Best Regards,

Ed
 
Posts: 6719 | Location: Southwestern Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: April 19, 2004
IHC Member 328
posted
OK! My number 42769 Wm Kendrick's Sons is back from being serviced.

"pitfalls" thread

Here's a nice dial pic, the hairline is hidden a bit by the hand shadow at the 11 min to ctr but really cleaned up nice. Not noticible at a first glance.

Our data base shows 45 of these Private Label watches and apparantly 15 or more of them are missing their original dial.. This one has some scratches and smudges on the movement but still glad to have it.

 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Member 328
posted
I always read these too quick and thought they were "Wm Kendricks & Sons" but now see that it is "Wm Kendrick's Sons" !! I guess that means that the dad wasn't in business anymore.

happy hunting

 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator

Picture of Tom Brown
posted
Nice watch Bill!

Looking on the web I found that William Kendrick was born about 1810 in New York. The earliest I find him in Louisville is the 1860 census & he is in the 1861 city directory as a jeweler.

His son William Carnes Kendrick was born June 7, 1852 in Kentucky. His son was listed as a clerk in the father's store.

At some point in the 1870's they became William Kendrick & Son.

The dad appeared to have died around 1880. Then it appears that another son of the senior William, George Kendrick (born about 1856 in Ky), joined the business and the name became William Kendrick's Sons. This information is from the Louisville city directories over the years where it lists the names of the business and the people involved.

Tom
 
Posts: 5113 | Location: New Mexico in the USA | Registered: January 27, 2007
IHC Member 328
posted
Outstanding Tom!

You make this watch come to life, like it was telling us the story!
 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator

Picture of Tom Brown
posted
This is his ad from the 1861 city directory

 
Posts: 5113 | Location: New Mexico in the USA | Registered: January 27, 2007
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator

Picture of Tom Brown
posted
1870 directory where William C. is listed as a clerk

02
 
Posts: 5113 | Location: New Mexico in the USA | Registered: January 27, 2007
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator

Picture of Tom Brown
posted
The ad from 1873 where the name was changed

03
 
Posts: 5113 | Location: New Mexico in the USA | Registered: January 27, 2007
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator

Picture of Tom Brown
posted
1878 George is listed as a book keeper at the store.

04
 
Posts: 5113 | Location: New Mexico in the USA | Registered: January 27, 2007
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator

Picture of Tom Brown
posted
In the 1880 directory the business is listed the same as years before but in 1881 the senior is no longer listed and George is now listed with William C.

05
 
Posts: 5113 | Location: New Mexico in the USA | Registered: January 27, 2007
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator

Picture of Tom Brown
posted
Last is the 1884 directory. There is not a 1882 or 1883 directory. In this one the business name is changed.

06
 
Posts: 5113 | Location: New Mexico in the USA | Registered: January 27, 2007
IHC Member 328
posted
As discussed earlier in this thread, having the correct dial is crucial in realizing the value of the watch. They are rare enough that even a movement without the correct dial is somewhat desirable, but a complete watch will attract a much greater value and collector interest.

While many will argue over corredt matchings on other Ball watches, there is near unanimous agreement on these private label or jeweler watches as to what constitutes a correct pairing of dial and movement.

As correct dials are nearly impossible to locate, one does not fear a substitution and collectors are hard pressed to find a story to validate an incorrect marriage. The cleverest marriage I have seen is a Hamilton dial marked Marcy Special on a Marcy ORRS Ball watch.

As we know from our data base, at least one third of these surviving Private Label Movements have been observed without their correct dial. That seems reasonable to me on watches that are almost 120 years old. We do not expect dials to have the same survival rates as movements.

By the same measure, I would expect all Ball Watches of this era to have the same percentage of replaced dials. (I'd guess 33% or more!!) This is why it is important to have a sense of what is correct and be skeptical of any unusual pairings.

happy hunting
 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Member 1090
Picture of Edward Kitner
posted
As a side note...
WD Wilcox, Utica, NY is still in business. Some time in the past the name was changed to Lennon & Wilcox. It is a very "high class" store!
 
Posts: 1489 | Location: New York State in the USA | Registered: March 04, 2008
IHC Member 328
posted
Just found this nice link for the history of Kendrick's They are STILL in business!!

happy hunting
 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Member 328
posted
Business card

happy hunting

 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Member 328
posted
Looks like the market is recovering a bit for these beauties! This one just went off for $2800!

Incredibly Rare BALL Private Label Kendrick's Sons, 17J, YGF, POCKET WATCH

# 42240

happy hunting

 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Member 328
posted
I am a bit or a sucker for these private labels.

I have a complete Wm Kendricks as shown in an above post and have acquired three other private label movements that had no dial.

One is a J.R. Reed and another is a C.C. Fried.

We all know that finding one of these dials is almost impossible but sometimes good things happen.

My third un dialed Private label was another Wm Kendricks serial # 28371. To make this even more difficult, the correct dial had to have one of those early curly three dials that are found below 28600 Hamilton serial numbers.

Last week I bought a Ball Watch Co movement that had A Kendricks dial on it that was perfect for my movement. It has flaked away in a small half moon shape between the 5 min and 8 min marker. The repair is decent with the exception of the repainted round ball 5 min marker is too large and the coloring is a bit off. With the bezel on it looks pretty good and the rest of the dial is very good.
Of course I would have liked a perfect dial, but am thrilled to have found one this good. I always pay too much, but am thrilled to have put this one back together.

The hobby can be expensive but I still think I spend less on watches than a lot of folks spend on golf and I get a tremendous kick out of acquiring these beauties and enjoy wearing and looking at them.



happy hunting,

 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Member 328
posted
Didn't get a real good picture of movement # 28371

but here it is for now.

If anyone comes across a J.R. Reed or C.C. Fried Ball dial, I am your customer.

I note Bonhams has a few private labels in there Dec Auction, some of which need dials and some that don't.



happy hunting

 
Posts: 888 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
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