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Welcome Aboard IHC185™ Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Open to the World RESEARCH FORUMS Ball Watch Company Research Forum Ball Serial Number Question
Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Open to the World RESEARCH FORUMS Ball Watch Company Research Forum Ball Serial Number QuestionGo | New Topic | Find-Or-Search | Notify | Tools | Reply to Post | |
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Hi All, I was looking at the Ball Serial Numbers information on the board, and was wondering why some had letters and most did not? In the past I have seen them with and without the letters and with Ball Watch Co. and other Ball names listed with the "Other" watch comapanies list too. So can you give me an understanding of the Serial Number issues, with this watch or Company. How can you tell if it's a Ball Watch Co or a Ball "Waltham" or another company Ball watch? Were the serial numbers according to the Company they are making them for? What is the lettering about? Thanks all, Sheila | ||
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| IHC President Life Member  |
Sheila, To begin with, the Ball Watch Company of Cleveland, Ohio was never really a "watch company" as such, therefore their movements were produced under contract to their order by others. That contributes greatly to confusion about the numbers on their movements. In order to avoid additional confusion many collectors prefer use Ball before the name of the actual manufacturer as in "Ball-Hamilton" to explain the movement in question is a Ball-signed movement produced by the Hamilton Watch Company of Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Ball Watches were produced by companies such as Elgin, Hamilton, Hampden, E. Howard, Illinois and Waltham in addition to other domestic producers like Aurora, New York and Seth-Thomas along with a few Swiss makers. There were also watches made for Webb C. Ball the Cleveland, Ohio retail jeweler which were essentially "private label" and not associated with those produced with the "Ball Watch Company" name. I presume the "letters" or "lettering" you refer to is the "B-Prefix" found on many Ball-Waltham, Ball-Hamilton and Ball-Illinois movements. That change came early in the Twentieth Century to bring some consistancy to their numbering system. Prior to the "B-Prefix" being employed most, but not all Ball watches were marked using the the numbering system of the company that actually produced the movement. With the Ball-Hamiltons in particular this causes some odd overlapping of numbers which only add to the complexity and confusion that makes this hobby so fascinating. Additionally, we also find that some of the Ball-Hamilton movements were actually kept in the vault at Hamilton for several years before being shipped to the Ball facility. This is most prevelant on the higher jeweled and Brotherhood movements. To more easily recognize Ball-Hamilton versus Ball-Waltham 16-size movements see this topic... BALL 19J 16S - Hamilton or Waltham movement??? The illustrative side-by-side comparison and explanation may help get a handle on that question. In our Ball Watch Company Research Forum we have started putting together images of some interesting Ball watches. Eventually this will encompass advertising and everything associated with Ball & Company. Finally, this presentation "Webb C. Ball Railroad Standard Watches and Clocks" put together by the late Jim Hernick is a "must see" primer to the Ball Company and their wonderful watches and clocks. Hope this helps get you started in sorting it out, Lindell  | |||
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Lindell, Thank you so very much for the wonderful links, and the explanation was perfect. The message board info. will be perfect for learning about them. I must have missed all those links. The only question I have left is what is it, when it's only marked Ball Watch Co. on the movement, with a serial number that begins with the B sorry, I forget the actual number, but it did have the letter and 6 more numbers, that I believe started with a 4 it was under 500,000. Would it just take someone who knows that watch, and be able to connect it to a Waltham, Elgin, etc.? or were there any that were just Ball Watch Co. Watches? I'm posting a picture from Shugart's book of the one I thought may be it, however it was confusing too. It was exactly like the one on the right, but had the 2 screws like the one on the left.!!! Page 171 Sheila | |||
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| IHC President Life Member |
Thanks Sheila, None of us have figured this out easily, it takes a lot of research and careful study. A movement marked "Ball Watch Co." rather than "Ball & Co." would probably be from after the turn of the Century but the exact number from the movement is what we will need to nail it down. That image you provided is from page 171 of "The Complete Guide to Watches" 2006 Edition and shows two 18-size Columbus movements. Those are not Ball Watch Company products. Look only in the Ball section, pages 150 through 160 inclusive for watches related to Ball and the Ball Watch Company. Better yet look at the images in our Ball Watch Company Research Forum for some very clear examples. This is not an easy subject to learn, so check the images very carefully. Lindell | |||
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OOPs.... That was the next question I was going to ask, I posted the wrong picture! I went to the links you provided and they are OUTSTANDING! I have already answered a lot of what I wanted to know with just the one presentation you posted. Wonderful information, so I will go through them and then ask any additional questions I may have a problem with. You mentioned the Ball Watch Co., and Ball & Co. that was one of my first Questions. So a Ball & Co would be an early watch correct? Thanks again for the links, I will read them all. Sheila | |||
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I found the watch number. I had lost the auction. B404304 Ball Watch Co 17 or 19J ? No picture of the movement. So how would you know what it is? Don't you need to see the movement? Sheila | |||
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| IHC President Life Member |
Ball watch movements were most often marked "Ball & Co." in the 1890s and then during 1901 we see "Ball Watch Company" appearing on their movements. Look closely at number 170249 and 170704 and you'll see the change was phased in between those two movements during 1901 Ball-Hamilton production. Images of those watches are here in "Early Ball-Hamilton 18-size images" for everyone to see. The number you asked about B404304 is a Ball-Illinois 12-size, 19-Jewel, Adjusted, Open-Face, from a group of 8,000 movements B400001-B408000 produced from the late 1920s to the early 1930s time-frame. These interesting watches feature Ball's circular damaskeening pattern and according to Bill Meggers on Page 160 of the "Illinois Encyclopedia" will have either white porcelain-enamel or attractive fancy metal dials with "Ball Watch Co., Cleveland, Ohio" or simply the "Ball" signature on them. Original cases for these should be marked "Ball Model" inside the case-back. Oddly, there is no mention of the 12-size Ball-Illinois in the "Complete Guide to Watches" anywhere. Not on the numbers page or in the price listings, which would have made your research difficult. Thanks for your curiosity and patience Sheila, you inspire me.  I hope this information is helpful to you. Ball-Illinois 12-size numbered B402247 on the movement...  | |||
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| IHC President Life Member |
Fancy carved and textured dial with simple 'Ball' signature...  | |||
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Lindell, What outstanding examples you post!!! Wow! They are beautiful. I noticed that the "Book" didn't show any 12s too, and I wondered about that. I also thought that the watch dial you posted above, looks a lot like the dial in the auction. Sorry for the delay, but I have been checking out those posts you listed above, that is some fabulous information for sure. I have learned so much this way, in a really short time too. I can't thank you enough for posting all of this wonderful knowledge for me, all of the posts give so much understanding, of the sometimes complicated, bits of information I have. Maybe we should post the information about the 12s, for the new "Book". Ya think? Sheila  | |||
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[quote]I noticed that the "Book" didn't show any 12s too, and I wondered about that. I also thought that the watch dial you posted above, looks a lot like the dial in the auction. Thanks Sheila, See page 157 1/2 way down on page four watches listed for 12 size. Cooksey | |||
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| IHC President Life Member |
Thanks Cooksey, you're right! Looks like Sheila and I could use new glasses.  | |||
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Just a reminder in this discussion about the 12-size watches -- other than a few "private label" Swiss watches for Ball's jewelry firm there were only two Ball Watch Co. models. The first, a standard 12-size movement, was made by Waltham and every example I have seen has an enamel dial. These came in Ball-marked cases. The second 12-size Ball Watch Co., like that shown above, was made by Illinois beginning in 1926. The Illinois model is not a standard 12-size and requires a special case. I have only seen these with metal dials and would be interested to hear of any known examples with an enamel dial as suggested by Lindell. | |||
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Mr. Shugart, Thank you so much for the information! I did indeed miss those. I'm new to any, and all, Ball watches, so this helps so much, because for the first time, I have seen several of them lately, and had not seen them before. I put a big red star by them this time, so I won't miss them again. Thank you. PS I could not make it without your book, I just love it, and by this time of the year, I need the new one, my "Book" thanks you too!!!! (poor thing is so battered) Jerry, Wonderful information about the cases, I have been tempted to buy a few of the 12s I have seen, because they looked different to me, and now I know, that I better make sure of the case when I consider them again. Lindell, Your right! I do need new glasses, but I did search all over for them, and still didn't see them. Getting old is the pits!!!  Sheila | |||
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