I think Larry Buchan or Tom Brown gave [information about] this, but I can't find it.

Anyone remember?

happy hunting

Bill

Larry posted this;

3.) The locomotive firemen effected an organization called the "BROTHERHOOD of LOCOMOTIVE FIREMEN" (BofLF) on December 1st 1873 at Port Jervis, New York. At their convention in Milwaukee WI during September 1906 the name was changed to the "BROTHERHOOD of LOCOMOTIVE FIREMEN & ENGINEMEN"

here;

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...6042471/m/8346033771

Tom

Thanks Tom,

I should have known to look thru the tales from the rails instead of all the old Ball threads.

happy hunting,

Bill

I just got lucky in my search, I knew I had either read it or posted something but I didn't know where.

Tom

Bill,

The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers didn't consolidate with anyone, they remained an independent union up till the 1960's. That's because engineers and enginemen were two distinct groups of railroad employees.

The "enginemen" that consolidated with the firemen were the employees who drove the locomotives around in the rail yards, maintenance sheds, roundhouses, etc. and also tended to the testing and repair operations.

It was the "engineers" that drove the freight and passenger trains out on the main lines.

Ed,

Thank you, that probably explains why both BLE and B of LF&E watches continued to be ordered by Ball in 1908.

happy hunting,

In regards to what Ed posted;

"The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers didn't consolidate with anyone, they remained an independent union up till the 1960s. That's because engineers and enginemen were two distinct groups of railroad employees.
The "enginemen" that consolidated with the firemen were the employees who drove (locomotives and trains were never drove they were run) the locomotives around in the railyards, maintenance sheds, roundhouses, etc. and also attended to the testing and repair operations.
It was the "engineers" that drove the freight and passenger trains out on the main lines."

Here is the real history, and background of the two engine service organizations, while the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers banded together In 1863 to represent the craft of locomotive engineers, 10 Years later In 1873 The Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen effected their lodges to represent the craft of firemen.

In locomotive service you start out as a wiper in the railway shops, basically a laborer whose duties are to clean, fuel, and service steam locomotives, the next progression is hostler, a term adopted from the horse and carriage trade, their job was to move locomotives around shop facilities, and roundhouses so locomotives could be fueled, serviced, repaired, and moved to the outward track for their next tour of service, whether it be on the road or in the yard, the next promotion was to fireman in yard then road and passenger service, and finally promotion to locomotive engineer in yard, road, and passenger service.

While the two crafts complemented each other, they did not always get along, many attempts for a merger were made over the years, the engineers would always vote it down. The firemen finally fed up with this, added enginemen to their title and said they would represent both sides of the locomotive cab. Of course one of the big stumbling blocks with consolidation of the two groups was over insurance, both carried their own form of life insurance that was compulsory to be a member, so the firemen did not want to give up their policies they had paid for for so many years, when they were promoted and joined the engineers union. Some kept their memberships in both, they were called doubleheaders, while others stayed on in the firemen's organization, as they were now represented upon promotion to the right-hand side of the cab.

The firemen's strategy was to eventually take over through attrition, as the older engineers died out, and the firemen signed up more members it would only take a matter of time for them to be in control, unfortunately they did not anticipate the changes in technology, and the steam engines being replaced by diesels spelled out the death knell of the firemen's craft. With declining membership they were forced to merge with the conductors, trainmen, and switchman in 1969 to form the United Transportation Union.

The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers added Trainmen to their name in 2004 and merged with the Teamsters union.

Informative and knowledgeable as usual Larry most impressive. [-] All the best for the new year Larry,Tom

Hello Tom:

Yes I wanted to set the record straight on the background of these two organizations, there is a bit of irony when you look at the new logo for the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen, the great B of LE subservient to the Teamsters horses, while the iron horse had victory over horsepower, look who is on top now. [-] Wishing you good luck with your collection in this new year.

Larry