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ups package (obviously tampered with after shipment) arrived w/ no watch..movement number B639591 (1930, 999..gold ball stirrup bow case) ebay# 5072322621 ...package shipped from CA, Mon.May 1st...any help appreciated...I'm heartbroken..Thanks Greg Pettigrew NC
Get in touch with the seller right away, and because they state:
Item will be shipped insured within 3 business days of receipt of payment
They should have the insurance information for the watch. Also call UPS and let them know what happened, even though you may not be able to do anything until you get the insurance information.
UPS does have low limits though and I don't like them for auctions.
I'm so sorry for what happened, I'm sure you feel crushed. I sure would. But one good thing is, that you may be able to at least get your money back. Not the best thing, but still better than an entire loss.
Please let us know what happens.
PS Really nice watch! Sad.
The kind of loss you describe is becoming increasingly common.
One of the lessons for those reading this is if it is a PayPal transaction you should be fully compensated. Same would hold true for the seller providing the shipment was properly insured. Remember that insurance is paid to the one shipping the item because they bought the coverage. The insurance contract is with the seller, not with you. But as Sheila pointed out you may be able get a claim started from your end. Also consider filing a police report locally for your protection. And of course I would recommend your calling the seller if you have not already done so.
We activated the eBay number in your post so it is now a live-link.
Here that is again for whatever time it is available...
HAMILTON 999 BALL POCKET WATCH 21j FANCY STIRRUP BOW
And here for the record is the complete eBay auction description...
"HAMILTON 999 BALL POCKET WATCH 21j FANCY STIRRUP BOW CASE Circa: 1930.
DIAL: Original white porcelain single sunken dial marked with the Ball Logo and: BALL/ OFFICIAL RR STANDARD/ Cleveland. The hands are original black spade blued and mint. Perfect dial.
MOVEMENT: 16 size, open face, ¾ Plate Nickel circular damascening, lever set, 21 Jewels/ Adjusted 5 Positions, and Official/ Standard, Sapphire Pallets, Number B639591 Free of rust, scratches, blemish or distraction."
CASE: Fancy original screw back and bezel with a blank crest on the back and stirrup tight bow model. This case is very desirable and is original to this model. No dings or brass, excellent to near mint condition. Inside back is marked with the Ball-Hamilton Logo signatures."
Stolen Watch (auction image)...
Don't rely too much on PAYPAL, I paid for an item from Ebay ,value approx £100 ($170) and item never arrived, I was told by PAYPAL to contact seller which I did, He said he had proof of delivery but wouldn't give me the proof. Paypal told me to wait 35days and then make a claim,When I did they had no record of my claim and that it was now too late to make a claim. I am out of pocket £100 and article never did arrive. Good Luck , Ged.
Looks like any PayPal claim must be filed within 45 days of purchase...
The hook appears to be getting the funds properly deducted from the seller's PayPal account.
|IHC Life Member
Boy I hate hearing that but unfortunately there are thieves everywhere. I am sure the seller hates to hear it also but he should have insurance on it and is ultimately responsable for it getting into your hands in the condition he sold it as. Paypal told me that themselves and that the buyer can make a claim if it is not. You also need to keep the box and packing contents to show UPS. I have lost overseas contents in a registered box before where someone sliced box corner open with razor and stole the watch and overseas max. insurance on registered is $46. Good luck on finding the watch but more than likely it will end up in a pawn shop. It is good to post though you never know.
That is very upsetting I feel sorry for you. I assume there is no insurance. First do not get rid of the packing or box it came in. I would file a police report then I would start by contacting your UPS route driver. From there to the supervisor of the local UPS depot it passed through and then work back from there till you are at the depot it shipped from and the driver that picked it up.if any . Call your insurance agent and ask him if you have anything to cover this,you never know.
If all else fails maybe a small claims action against UPS. The reality of this is that it might cost UPS more money to try and defend itself in small claims then to just admit the loss and pay you.
Does the seller state that coverage is included in the shipping or was there not coverage . Was the box packed such that if crushed it would have split open in transit ?
Its a shame the case pics arent still on the listing, as that was a huge reason for buying the watch..I called the ups 800 # Saturdy morning after I collected my thoughts,and started the process w/ the help of some very helpful people (though its Tuesday, and I havent heard from anyone yet), and then called the seller also...Thanks to everyone
Greg Pettigrew (the almost owner)
I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of this beautiful watch. It seems as though you did everytning you could from your end. I had a watch completely crushed in transit through the u.s p.s. It took some months for all the paperwork and and final payment to come through. Please keep in contact with all necessary parties, and don't stop until you get payment or the watch. Be sure that proper police reports are filed. Good luck to you. Keep us posted here at IHC, OK? I'm so very sorry!
Now, here is a way to find the movement number B639591 if it should ever show up in an eBay auction. Go to... http://www.ebay.com/ and type "Ball Watch B639591" into the search of all categories. Then click the (Search) button. When the next page open then choose the "Add to Favorite Searches" option. That should cause us to receive an eMail if and when that serial number is listed. I set mine for the next year.
I have also posted a "Want It Now" within eBay posting that states...
We are looking for this specific Ball Watch movement serial number B639591 so please contact me if it shows up. Thank you! Lindell V. Riddle, President of Internet Horology 185 (ihc185.org) on the internet. Call me at 440-461-0167 afternoons US Eastern Time.
Eternal vigilance, my friends!
I am truly sorry to hear of this incident. I too have been a victim of theft through the mail and have several freinds who have experienced the same.
I have gotten into the habit of grabbing the photos of items I have won and saving them. One can even copy and paste the winning auction page into a word document and save it for a reference.
I hope all works out for you.
Is this mostly a UPS problem? I recently got a clock that had the box torn open at the side. Now it makes me wonder if someone "inspected" it to see if it was worth taking. I got the clock, but wonder if someone wanted to know what was in the box. I think that was sent through the postal service since it was from Canada.
Almost all of the photos I post here are from my ebay buys, because I ALWAYS copy them so I will have a picture of them just in case. By the way, when you save the internet page from ebay, look at the pull down list and you will see save COMPLETE page and it will include the pictures too. I have had it only save a page now and then, but mostly it saves all of it including the pictures, of course, it only shows the one that's in full view and the others are still small. I like to put them right into the picture files though. Not as much storage that way.
The pictures do come in handy, and would be great in a case like this one, where you may need them for insurance.
I always hear of UPS being a problem, but it seems to be in certain areas????
People has suggested to me that when shipping valuable items in the US, use only registered US Mail. Each and every human being who touches the box must sign for it, and the box is locked up when it is not traveling.
I have also been told that even if you pay for more insurance the other shipper have limits on jewelry and antiques that may be lower than that for which you paid. I don't know if that is true.
|IHC Life Member
Welcome aboard Don,
Glad to have you posting on this great site.
You are one of the hamilton and pocketwatch experts and we value your input. We look forward to all of your posts.
I have read the same thing. Even on ebay I have seen it in the community pages and sellers always want to fight with you over sending it that way, but is supposed to be the safest way to send them, for just that reason. It has to be signed for from every person who handles it. If I purchased a really expensive watch, or was considering it, I would ask for registered and not bid if they refuse me.
Maybe it's time for some kind of change in the delivery services insurance???
Just about impossible today, so Registered is the way to go.
I've also used the usps service where you have to sign for it too.
Sure am glad I only have to use it some of the time.
Now, how do I fix the problem of someone moving in 3 houses down, with the same name as you???
It's a nightmare! They get my mail, I get theirs.
Yet another trip to the post office that gets me nowhere.
Before he retired and closed his store, my jeweler friend told me to use registered mail to ship anything of value. He told me that he routinely shipped precious metals and gems sometimes worth over $100,000 per package and he would always ship registered mail. He said that he never insured the package and with his being part of the store for over 40 years, he never lost a package. That is good enough for me to always use registered mail for valuable items.
They said when the Hope diamond was donated to the Smithsonian, it was sent by regular mail.
The investigator from UPS came out today (TUESDAY,16th) looked at, and took the package, back to her loss prevention mgr....she seemed to think the watch was probably taken before it left CA..(just a theory as of now)..she said I should hear from her superior by the end of the workday WED..Ill have to say that everyone I have dealt with from UPS so far has been nice and sympathetic.. Bottom line though...I REALLY wanted the watch...Thanks everyone!!!! Ill post info as this proceeds...Anyone have a comparable watch for sell if this one isnt recovered???
My suggestion is you take a "What if?" approach.
I think your three big questions are these...
(1) Was this item insured at the point of shipment?
(2) If so, what was the amount of coverage on this item?
(3) Presuming it was insured, how long does it take to settle?
Remember, as I pointed out in an early post about your loss, the insurance contract if any is with the shipper so it might not be easy for you to deal with UPS but you still deserve straight answers. I reviewed the most of the following and did not find any direct problems...
CLICK FOR: UPS Terms and Conditions of Service
Earlier today I called UPS and determined that up to $100.00 in insurance is provided on every one of their shipments. The fee for added coverage is $1.50 per $100.00 making it a $13.50 amount for $1,000.00 in coverage. According to the person I spoke with their is apparently no problem with a limit of coverage on "jewelry" as such. I mention this because Fedex will not provide coverage for more than $100.00 on "jewelry" which if I understand correctly is the insurance industry classification for all watches regardless of age, type or other factors.
So at this point if I were you I would want clear answers to the three questions posed above.
It is important to remain focused on this situation. Quite possibly UPS will find the watch and although that may be unlikely it could happen in the coming days. If this was indeed an internal theft, they just may get to the bottom of it. Thieves often get sloppy and leave a trail. It could also show up on eBay any day now which would be very good news. Bottom line, every one of us is hoping for the best so keep us apprised of any developments.
We all relate to your situation and what you are going through.
First, let me say it is my hope and prayer that you get your watch! Next, let me tell you about my item.
It was a week and no package, I contacted UPS, they said they would call me back, took a week. When they did call, they said that they knew that it had been delivered to another old address of mine! and they would get back to me. 3 weeks later they called again, bottom line, after over 9 weeks, I GOT MY ITEM! They did go to the one they had delivered it to, (with threat of police this time) and got my package. They DID go all the way for me, and although I'm not crazy about UPS, I have to tell it like it is, and say, they did a wonderful job, and went all the way for me.
It may take time, however you COULD get it back. I sure hope so.
Hang in there.
I received an eMail from Greg this morning.
Things are moving very slowly and therefore he is understandably frustrated.
I'm sure none of us are picking on UPS in this topic, in fact each of the major carriers have suffered similar losses. Back in 2003 our friend and fellow member David Johnson (watchupdoc on eBay) shipped a rare E. Howard watch to England using the US Postal Service and his customer there opened an empty box. In that instance however the watch was examined by UK Customs but later an empty box was delivered.
The by now all too familiar story hits every one of us where it hurts.
At that time nearly two years ago I related this event...
Recently I bought a valuable watch from a highly reputable seller located in the United Kingdom. The situation David is going through was very fresh in my mind when the UPS Driver rang my bell with the delivery. I invited the driver in and was about to sign for the package. It looked completely intact but in handling the box I had no clear impression of weight.
I explained briefly to the driver what happened to David and his buyer then asked the driver if he would wait just a moment while I opened the package. He politely agreed and together we peeled back the layers of packing material. I related that only a few hundred movements like the one I hoped to find inside were made ninety-five years ago as we opened the second box to reveal a third.
Upon opening the dark green presentation box there it was, the gleaming Waltham Premier Maximus correctly housed in its exceptionally rare 18K Dennison Case. Realizing this is how it would have looked to the original owner, I explained the value and rarity of this great old watch a bit more as the UPS driver commented I was completely right to open the package in his presence for my own protection.
Then I signed for the delivery and thanked the driver for his cooperation.
My story had a happy ending, but I cannot help but wonder if this is what we must now do in order to avoid "missing watch" problems. What a sad commentary on the world we live in today. So, are we now to the point of having to open important packages in front of the driver for our own self-protection? Is that a form of bottom-line "self-insurance" we must employ to guard ourselves against such problems?
What do you say?
You hit the nail on the head for sure. I have already done that, and the driver didn't mind at all. He said that when I'm waiting for a package that may contain an expensive item, it's in THEIR best interest to wait too. They are out of the line of fire if there are any questions in the future, and even if it's missing, I could be a witness, of it's being taped up or not, or if it looked like it had been tampered with.
He also said, that they had been recently trained to look a package over, and if it looked unusual, to note it in his computer. Seems this protects all the "Good Employees" too.
They are getting Very Strict with the operations here, and plan on doing a lot more in the future too.
Sure hope they do!
The 3 box idea sounds wonderful to me! Good Idea!
Now if you could just get them to do that on ebay.
I'm also sorry about the lost. Like others, I'm always anxious about shipping or receiving watches by the various meams that are available. Recently, I used USPS Registered Mail and USPS Prioity Mail. Insurance and postage for the registered mail for a $7,000 value was about $20.00, and insurance and postage for a $1,500 Priority Mail shipment was about $21.00. So in many cases registered mail is cheaper. The only "problem" with shipping via registered mail is the packaging. You must use only brown-paper packaging tape, and no other, because each seam is stamped to discourage tampering. I wrap the box in brown "butcher" paper first, and then tape it with the brown-paper tape. The tape is hard to find, but the post office personnel may assist.
This info may not help you get your watch back, but it may help others if registered mail is a choice.
Welcome aboard Tom, and thanks a million for your insights.
I feel most confident and comfortable with fully insured USPS Priority Mail. Frankly, part of that's because I get real nervous waiting for the package to arrive.
No luck on recovering watch, but a refund check for total amount is supposed to be on its way from the seller... I will update when recieved
I do hope you get reimbursed ok financially for this loss, must be really upsetting for you losing that watch though, I'd be gutted!
As a private seller on Ebay, I dread this sort of thing happening to stuff I send out. Much of it may be just old 'clunkers' to restore or use as parts that I'm clearing out, but even those go ballistic on final bid values at times!
On the other side of the coin though, not all buyers are honest, and as sellers, we don't always find out if stuff has arrived ever...... and constantly wait for the 90 day limit for Paypal chargebacks to pass.
I sold a Rolex Tudor movement to a buyer in Chicago a while back, which was sent via Royal Mail 'Airsure' - the most secure postal method from the UK.
The RM finally advised me that the watch had Not been delivered to the buyer .......... but the watch never came back, the buyer never left feedback, never replied to my Emails or filed a 'chargeback' via Paypal. Hmmmmmm!!!
I can only assume he had an arrangement with the postal delivery services to 'lose' the packet (should have been scanned and signed for) in order Not to pay excise taxes on it.
Nothing happened in the end, but for 3 months, I waited for Paypal to debit my account and worried over it.
The buyer is still trading on Ebay, so I can only assume he got the watch!
When sending watches I sell, they're packed thickly in bubble wrap, taped, then wrapped again and put in a box big enough Not to get lost, the box is then taped, then double wrapped in brown paper and taped again across the ends and centre.
No way can the contents be 'got at' by just slitting an end or corner, they'd have to destroy the box!
Ebay is such a fantastic resource for buying and selling globally, and I wouldn't have sold a fraction of what I have done, or realised such amazing values for stuff without it, but it brings with it so much worry at times too.
Fortunately though the vast majority of folks are decent and honest.
So sorry to hear this, but make sure you let us know what happens. Sure hope this works out ok for you.
Boy can I relate to you! I recently got a package so wrapped up that it took 2 men and a small horse to get it opened!!!
I wouldn't have it any other way though. Sometimes they are so wrapped up, that I get frustrated trying to open them, then the thing finally just POPS out, and I have to hold my breath until I'm sure it's still OK.
As far as the missing watch issue goes, I find that if I write to a seller before an auction closes, and they give me a hard time with insurance, or won't answer me, I forget them immediatly. I have learned too much here to worry about a seller that won't answer me, or gives me a hard time over letting me insure an item.
Many sellers say you don't need insurance, the seller is responsible, then in the auction they write not responsible if not insured, and won't offer it!!! what a joke.
In the community message board they scream all the time that it's stupid to get insurance, that they are responsible, then when it comes time for them to pay, NO WAY!
Ebay could use a lot more help with this issue, especially when folks like us are paying a lot of money for watches.
Hope you see that check in your hands very soon.
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