I decided I needed to add to my Railroad Grade "collection" of which I only had one, my Waltham Crescent Street. I picked up this Elgin B.W. Raymond grade 478 for only $98. It is in a Philadelphia Silverode case which I'm going to try and polish up. I may even switch it into another lower pendant case I have coming because the movement dates from 1927 and I know they had moved to the shorter pendants by then even though the old styles were still available. The watch runs great but I don't know enough to know if the dial and hands are original or not. Maybe someone can comment on that but be kind

This is the back. You can see there is an engraving of a stag.

Last but certainly not least. The movement.

After a light application of Turtle Wax brand chrome and metal polish.

That was a nice pickup the movement and dial are worth $98.
I cant see any other screw marks in the case. If there are no other its questionable if this is a modern recase or one one done by the original owner. While it was made in 1927, its possible it was not sold for a few years. I understand it was common for gold filled cases to be traded in for a few extra bucks, especially during the great depression, and a cheaper but more durable case like the silveroid one its in to be used. Gold filled cases in dirty environments, like a lot of railroad jobs, didnt last long.

Back after polishing

As Elgin shipped only uncased movements (usually) in those days, the buyer might have gotten real lucky and found a dealer with that older and very long wear life Silveroid case. Very nice "catch" for the price. Now you can run two railroads!!

Nice indeed!

Donald,


Congrats on your acquisition, as Dave said, a very good value at $98.

The dial and hands are cool, extra-bold and very Art Deco, entirely consistent with 1927. I agree with Jim & Dave, that this older-style high-pendant case was probably bought second hand back in the day by the original owner, as a replacement when the original gold-filled case either wore out or was sold.

Nice buy for under a 100$ - Congrats

A very nice buy and the case is great. The silveroid cases are far better for carrying then gold filled and the nice thing about your watch is that it can be carried and enjoyed and parts are available.

Can't add a thing but to say flat out, leave it as it is. It's a perfect carry case for you.

Just be sure to get the movement cleaned, oiled and adjusted before you put it into carry rotation.

NICE purchase!

HIGH regards! Mark

I would have to disagree a bit, the 472 was the first grade to come "cased/timed" and definitely the 478 would have been "cased/timed" in Elgin cases. Elgin started doing the "cased and timed" with the 472 in the early 20's, the 16s 45x series would have been the last to be sold as loose movements.

The dial might be correct "pre-star" but by 1927 I would expect to see it with Elgin with a star below it. Most people say the arrow second hand started on the 571 but I have seen enough 478's with them (that looked original and near new) to believe that Elgin started using this second hand on the 478's. For $98 it was a very good deal, especially with the case in as good condition as it is. I think in actual production numbers for the 478 were in the same ball park as the 571. The were nice well made work horse movements.

In another thread on this board, it seems to say In the patent application posted that the star on the dial was not in continuous use until 1933.
https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...6047761/m/3073965957

If you notice in that document it mentions Nov 1925 and later dates. The grade 478 ran from ~1923 to ~1944 and the early runs did not have the star on the dial but after the initial early runs and into later ones, the dials did. 1927 would be 4 years after the first run and two years after the patent date mentioned (1925). Also on the arrow second hand the 478's that typically had those were very late 30's and into the 40's but not the 20's unless they were swapped out.

Also note on the patent document that it mentions a 10 year provision associated to the 1925 date and if you look at the date it is nearly 10 years to the month from the Nov 1925 date, only missing 10 yrs exactly by about 2.5 months. The grade 478 came factory cased in multiple style cases but the 478 grade would have been factory cased.

Nothing is 100% but 2 years after the 1925 initial date mentioned and 4 years after the initial release I would expect to see a star under Elgin.

When I read that application I see nothing that says conclusively that the star was used in 1925. To me it only mentions other patents from then, possibly for other trademarks. I think the statement that the trademark in question had been in "continuous use" from August of 1933 is more telling and conclusive and says that that was when it was used on all production. Maybe some before that date had a star and some didn't. I do tend to agree about the case though. It probably is not original to the movement but again, is it known for sure that Elgin was not selling uncased movements at that time?

Yes Elgin like the other brands started selling cased watches with the advent of the new design BWR (grade 472), if you breeze through sale adds where you see uncased movements pretty much stopped with the 45X grades. On you dial if you gander through Elgin ads and sales catalogs you will also see this is more of a late 478 style dial in terms of font and numbering. Here is a 39 Elgin sales catalog, also note as I said that the late 478's did come with the arrow second hand which is seen in this sales cat 39 Elgin catalog

Also here is another shot of the 39 catalog and yes Elgin did not put the stars on all dial, the lower jewel ones did not get a star 39 catalog #2

You dial has the inner black circle line and this was a late 30's 478, 494, 506, and 57X look. Please don't take my word for it, scour through some Elgin sale ads and sales catalogs and see when the dial on your watch starts to appear.

I am not trying to throw your watch under the bus but to be honest, the dial, hands and case are not correct for a 1927 grade 478.

Okay I pretty much accept and always have that the case is a replacement that was done at some time either because the original one wore out or was sold during the Depression for gold value. That Elgin site you linked to however shows a bunch of ads for the 1927 BWR and not a single one shows a star on the dial.

Yes the ads were not always as current as the catalogs, if you look closer to those ads and look at the style of dial and the mention of Invar the grades they were talking about were 472's not 478's. I can't recall ever seeing a 478 with an Invar dial but I guess we can make that a discussion point. My point on the dials was to show the style of the dial with the inner black circle ring did not show up until the late 30's and I should not have included the 494 and 506 since these were such limited runs and I can't recall any of them having that later style dial but since they were in the 33-34M (1932-34), serial number range with is much later than your 478,the 506's do carry a star and the 494 was a wind indicator. The 540 may well have shown up with this later style dial since it ran from the late 30's to early 40's and was Elgin's last US made 23j watch 16 size grade.
In 1927 Elgin was still making the 472 so in the 27 ad that is why you don't see the star dials, on the Elgin site after 1927 there isn't much in the way of ads to browse through other than the 39 Elgin catalog which does show some watches with the black inner circle line and the style of hands.

I have found two other sources, one being the reference material on the ***** site, that say that the star dials did not appear until 1933. I can't find anything about the ring except that I did find a picture of another Elgin from 1918 that had it.

As a side note, My Hampden 6s watch from 1896 also has an inner ring dial.