Hello,picked this up at a coin auction a few years ago and just now looking at it. In the lookup a
Grade P.S.B is indicated. This is an 18s, 17J and adjusted Waltham. No P.S. Bartlett on movement, does the grade indicated mean is of slightly better quality than normal 1883 model..or something like that? Any enlightenment appreciated

forgot photo

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Rick,

As a rule, I steer away from the '83s... but this one is particularly nice. 1886 - 17J adj. Internal Threaded case with a Canadian dial...

Very nice package.

R/Paul

The model of a watch is the overall design of the watch's movement (i.e., the size and shape of the plates and/or bridges, the layout of the (gear) train, and the design of the vast majority of the parts), whereas the grade of a watch indicates particular variations between examples of the same model that are usually, though not always, associated with overall quality. The variations that distinguish different grades can include such things as the number of jewels, how well-finished the movement is, whether the movement has screw-down jewel settings, etc. Sometimes these variations can be significant, and a particular model can come in a variety of grades from low quality to high. Often, however, the term "grade" is used merely to distinguish between minor variations, and in some cases two different grades are actually identical except for the name.

Here's how "grades" are stacked/defined from highest to lowest on the Model 1883's;

Crescent Street "Fine Nickel Movement; 15-21 Ruby Jewels in Gold Settings; Patent Regulator; Compensation Balance, adjusted to Temperature, Isochronism and Position; Patent Breguet Hairspring, Hardened and Tempered in Form; Fine Glass Enamel Double Sunk Dial; the finest Full Plate Movement in the world."

Santa Fe Route 17 jewels, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature, isochronism and position.

Appleton, Tracy & Co. "Nickel Movement; 15-17 Ruby Jewels in Gold Settings; Patent Regulator; Compensation Balance, adjusted to Temperature, Isochronism and Position; Patent Breguet Hairspring, Hardened and Tempered in Form; Double Sunk Dial."

No. 45 17 jewels, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature, isochronism and position.

Riverside 15-17 jewels, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature, isochronism and position.

No. 35 "Nickel Movement; 15 Ruby Jewels in Gold Settings; Patent Regulator; Compensation Balance, adjusted to Temperature, Isochronism and Position; Patent Breguet Hairspring, Hardened and Tempered in Form; Double Sunk Dial."

P.S. Bartlett "Nickel; 11-17 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature, patent micrometric regulator; patent Breguet hairspring, hardened and tempered in form."

Wm. Ellery 11-17 jewels, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature.

No. 85 "Gilded; 17 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature, patent micrometric regulator; patent Breguet hairspring, hardened and tempered in form."

No. 825 "Nickel; 17 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, cut expansion balance, patent Breguet hairspring, hardened and tempered in form, highly finished oval regulator, polished and gilded index plate."

No. 820 "Nickel; 15 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, cut expansion balance, meantime screws, patent micrometric regulator, polished and gilded index plate, patent Breguet hairspring, hardened and tempered in form."

No. 81 "Gilded; 15 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, cut expansion balance, patent Breguet hairspring, hardened and tempered in form.
"

No. 18 "Nickel; 7 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, cut expansion balance, highly finished oval regulator, polished and gilded index plate, patent Breguet hairspring hardened and tempered in form."

No. 1 "Gilded; 7 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, cut expansion balance, highly finished oval regulator, polished and gilded index plate, patent Breguet hairspring hardened and tempered in form."

Gentlemen, thank you. Buster I'm going to print your information, most considerate.
The watch looked pretty clean to me and was running and still is, and also the case is A.W.C.Co. sterling.
It is so comforting to know there are "books of knowledge" right at one's fingertips.

Yup, good info Buster.

Rick, is the case coin or sterling?

Hello Lorne, the Case is A.W.C.Co. Sterling, with PAT 1888 and the number 3 under the PAT 1888.

Rick, overall you have a very good all original "period correct" 1894 vintage unmarked, P.S.Bartlett that was factory UPGRADED to an A.W.W.Co..

The inside threaded Sterling Silver Canadian market case and the very good condition 24 Hour Dial in the condition, would easily tempt a Waltham Fancier to "insure" this example in their collection at US$450.00+.

David,what a pleasant surprise. Thank you for your assessment. I was more than happy to have the watch accurately identified.
I do have another Waltham I will ask about regarding accurate identification. No doubt it is my inexperience, and now have no hesitation drawing upon other's experience that is so freely given by all. What a treat!

I'm trying to fathom the reason for a statement earlier in this thread... "steers away from (model) '83s."
Well, they surely lack the cache of M'72s, but the M'83s were some of Waltham's prettiest carrys, with fine damaskeening, and I believe they kept/keep pretty good time. There are a number of grades, and I might prefer the higher ones but...avoid them altogether? Perhaps something to do with obtaining parts?

And, an observation just made is that Waltham continued to make their P.S. Bartlett grade well after 1900, despite the fact that Mr. Bartlett left the company in 1864 for competitor Elgin?! Another thing to wonder about.

kh

Ken, At the top levels, especially when it came to (controlling) "sharing" marketing channels, Waltham and Elgin were kindred spirits indeed. As for B. W. Raymond, (P.S. Bartlett . . . Corr.) the name was quite reputable for Waltham and could hardly be used by anyone else as long as they continued it's use.

The comment about 1883's sound like it comes from one who has worked on them. The 18s "workhorse" that shows direct evolution from the first model produced by Waltham, it is sort of like the Harley Davidson "big bore V-twin" one of the most retarded designs to remain a standard model for the longest time. The 1883 had at least twice as many "engineering" revisions as number of years it was produced! Yet it NEVER was "upgraded" to an in-line escapement! Sorta like the H-D "Big Twin" ran with a total loss design dribble down oiling system (with a later added oil recovery sump) from 1903-1998!
Some pretty models though . . .

To all, I neglected to follow one of the posting guidelines, that is the serial movement number for the above unmarked Grade P.S.B. 18 size Waltham. The serial # is - 6887985.
The A.W.C.Co serial # is 274982 Sterling silver.

Rick, at the bottom right of each of your posts you will see a little yellow eraser icon, this allows you to edit your posts.

When you forget something such as a serial number all you have to do is click on the eraser, edit the post as you see fit, hit post now and the original post will be updated with your changes.

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Here are a couple ad cuts from The Trader and Canadian Jeweler, 1890, for that inside screw case. Do you find, like me they are somewhat annoying to open/close?

A

The reason I asked if it was sterling or coin is that I have only seen this version.

Serial# for Grade P.S.B. 18s Waltham - 6887985

Hi Lorne, thanks for the posting info, had to try it and hope it stays in long term memory.
Here is the trademark on my case. Not the same as indicated on yours or the publication. I have another old Waltham with the trademark in the publication. I intend to post later as I have some questions regarding accurate model clarity.

quote:

As for B. W. Raymond, the name was quite reputable for Waltham and could hardly be used by anyone else as long as they continued it's use.

Now I feel fairly sure David meant to say "Elgin" and not "Waltham", but he got to talking and thinking Harley's and just lost control and layed it down !!!

regards,
bb

I have a mental "Hiccup" when thinking of P.S.B. and B.W.R. Sorry. Did a little correction.

Would appreciate help again re: Waltham 18s, P.S. Bartlett

-This is a Waltham, 18s open face, yr. 1888+/-
-P.S.Bartlett on movement
-key wind and key set is on dial
-Serial# 3,603,155
-case is A.M.C.Co. Coin silver. Double hinge and offset to left & right of bottom center
-lookup site says this is Broadway Grade, No. 3 WM Ellery, Model 1883
-is this an error since Bartlett is on movement -closest I can determine is P.S. Bartlett, 15J, M#1883, KW. Is this correct?

dial

Complete Price Guide to Watches page 115 has Broadway key wind & HC for 1883 model. P.S. Bartlett further up the page has 15 jewel M# 1883 key wind.

First off this appears to me to be a hunting movement ?? So let's begin from there as to what it really is.....

Secondly let me bring out my bigger guns and post/add this to my earlier posting of the Waltham Watch Co. Grades. This is a reprint from a S.F. Meyers & Co. N.Y., New York catalogue from 1887; [see attachment]

Later we will possibly remove the barrel bridge and inspect for matched/mismatched serial numbers.

Then we can start "ID"ing from deducting maybe !!

regards,
bb

Hi Buster, thanks for your interest. I certainly do not know how to proceed to determine what the movement is. Never have taken a watch apart, have had a few nightmares about it though...springs and parts flying, that king of thing.

For some perspective: there were more model 1883 grades than there were previous model 1857s or model 1872s.

The A.T.&Co. grade was top quality early on, with the P.S. Bartlett grade being of lesser finish. The Nashua Division within Waltham knocked the A.T.&Co. off the top perch with its model 1860 and 1868, and did not include the grade at all in the model 1872.

The A.T.&Co. grade "came back" and was supplanted at the top by the Crescent St. and Santa Fe Route within the model 1883 hierarchy.

The P.S. Bartlett grade was always the more affordable watch from the beginning, as was the William Ellery. And although the P.S. Bartlett name (quality movement) made it into the 16 size, the William Ellery did not.

kh

Hi Ken and thanks. I picked up this watch at a coin auction a few years ago just for the heck of it. Has run without a problem since then. It just bothers me that i can't seem to determine its identity to any extent.
One would need a small donkey to carry it around though and I use it as a mantle clock.

That database is not infallible, Rick. I have a signed A.T.&Co that it calls a P.S.B.
But your watch is by no means a bad one! It was, by numbers sold, very successful. The jewel count is enough to make it a serious timekeeper.
There are many lesser grades.

K.

Waltham listed this as a 7-11 Jewel "Broadway" model which was Key Wind with a fair number made in the 1857-77 series (pic.). The "Broadway" was not very common in the 1883 series. However, I would check the serial numbers of the Barrel cover and the Balance cock. The Broadway was signed on the barrel cover and had no micro-regulator wheel on the Balance Cock.

As for the movement type, because there was no winding stem sticking out the side of the movement, Key Wind movements were all generally described as "Hunter" although the actual case determined of there was a "Hunter" cover or an "Open Face" crystal Bezel.

There is an 1883 mdl Broadway on eBay.

It shows the correct Barrel cover and Balance cock. That is why I questioned the one you have.

David my Broadway s/n 3532575 has the same cock
and barrel cover as the one you posted from eBay.

Roger

Roger, just to clarify, the eBay item was offered by someone else who offered it at an astounding price.

I only posted the pictures to affirm what I understood a model 1883 KW Broadway looks like. If yours is the same as the pictures it should be all "correct".

Thanks David,I knew the ebay offering was not yours.I just mistyped. That one is way off base
in my opinion.If he gets that imagine how many
will hit the marketplace.Including mine.

Regards
Roger