Hi all.
Have a 1924 Elgin BW Raymond that gains 1/2hr in 24hrs. Have cleaned it, checked the hairspring to see if it was wrongly positioned on the regulator pins and have since taking this image have adjusted to max S and it still runs too fast. Any ideas?

PS, which way of adjusting the regulator makes it go slower. I ask this because the F and the S are on the same side of the swan.
thx, Roland.

Roland

I think for those type of regulators, if you turn the adjustment screw towards the S it is for slow & if turned towards the F it will be for F.

Tom

A couple things to check first;
1. Does it have the same error in face up and pendant up positions?
2. Are there any missing timing screws on the Balance wheel?

If 1 AND 2 are both "No", then it needs to be re-timed, a half hour a day means probably starting with a couple larger timing screws where there are smaller ones now.

Then fine tuning it with timing washers.

Roland,

A gain of 1/2 hour in 24 is pretty excessive and certainly much more than be compensated for with the regulator. You could have a missing balance screw or perhaps one or 2 that are too light. So maybe someone did some incorrect repairs in the past. Also it appears that the hairspring is not true. The overcoil needs to come more towards the collet in the center.

Good luck.

William

Thank you all! I will check out the hairspring. It looks fine just not as large in diameter as similar movements. And I'll look into the timing screws. As for the regulator, if I turn the screw one way it moves away from F and since the S is on the same side which way actually is S?
Thank you again, Roland.

Roland, the regulator is hardly capable of adjusting 3 minutes a day let alone 30. You have a bigger issue to deal with here and it is most certainly solvable.

Hello Roland,
From your photo it looks as if the hairspring is stuck together on the right side of the picture. Might have oil or some other residue on it, I would clean it and see how it runs.

Ray

As you state it has been cleaned perhaps you should try to demagnetize it if you haven't already !!! Magnetism could cause the hairpring to stick to itself and shorten the balance arc,just a thought

Roland,
If you look closely at the hairspring overcoil where it passes the curb pins, it appears to be actually Behind the Inner pin - the hairspring Should be Between them!
This will cause the watch to gain hugely and also postion the spring off centre!

Ideally, remove the balance and cock assembly, slacken the stud and gently lift the end of the hairspring at the stud, then tease the spring across to drop it between the pins.
It can be done without removing the assembly, but you could run the risk of bending or breaking something.

John

Roland, Moving the regulator away from the F and S markings will make the watch run slower and moving it toward them will make it run faster. As has already been stated, it is not going to make up the large error that you have. The easy way to tell is that moving the regulator closer to the FS is moving the pins closer to the center of the HS, effectively shortening it and moving it the other way is lengthening the HS making it run slower.

Roger

ps...brain not in gear today...I had to edit my own post as soon as I wrote it cause I had things backward. It should be correct now as written. Sorry.

Hi Roger, no problem, I knew what you meant. I will recheck the hairspring as I agree that it seems closer or something on the one side and that it will cause the balance to swing more rapidly. I need to take a better shot also.

Here is a more closer look at the collet and hairspring. It is placed between the pins, but it seems to bend as it goes under the balance cock. The second image is from the other side and all appears fine. I'll lift off the balance cock and see what may be causing the bend under it.

Image 2

Roland

The hairspring should have that bend in it, it is what is known as a Breguet or a over coil. He is a photo off of another BWR Elgin.

Tom

Hi Tom, thank you. I figured it was perfectly fine and by design. It just seems more pronounced than on other watches I have of the same caliber.

Also, I can't tell from your photos but the over coil shouldn't touch the balance cock except for where it is attached & then between the pins. Is it raised to high or low where it is attached at the stud?

Tom

Hi Tom, have to look again. Took it apart and it all appears fine and hairspring is flat (see image). Put it back together and in 4 hrs has gained 2 minutes, so still has issues.

Balance cock removed to show hairspring.

Roland,

It seems quite possible the hairspring is wrong in the watch or the balance too light. Try vibrating the hairspring. Suspend the balance with tweezers on the hairspring at the point where the regulator would be centered. You will need to be able to time precisely 30 seconds, so a stopwatch function on a cellphone would work well. You will also need a domed watch crystal. Let the balance wheel oscillate while you just touch the pivot to the glass crystal. Watch one of the balance arms very carefully and start counting to 75 at the same time you start your stopwatch. Stop the stopwatch when you hit 75 and it should be at exactly 30 seconds. If it is less you know the problem is either a too light balance or a too strong hairspring.

Reasoning:

18,000 beats per hour, 9,000 each direction.
300 beats per minute, 150 each direction.
150/2 = 75 beats each direction for 30 seconds.

This will take a little practice to do, but it does work.

Roger

Hi Roger, boy that sounds tricky. Too me after compairing the size of the hairspring to similar grade movements (Waltham 645, Wm Mckinley 21J and a Hammie 992L) this Elgin's hairspring seems small and not as freely moving after it leaves the pins. It quickly bends and goes under the balance cock and then appears fine. The pins were bent inwards towards the cock, so straightened them out and so far this watch is running correct for the last hour. I'll leave it for tonight and see if it's gained in the morning. So either balance is too light or spring too small. Well time to sign off and watch some Law and Order.
Cheers, Roland.

Roland...I just took a close look at your balance wheel and the balance screws are not evenly spaced. On one side there are two screws next to the arm and then a hole and a screw. On the other side there are two screws and then three holes. Looks like a screw is missing.

Roger

Roland,
In your last photo of the BWR balance, notice the
balance screw at the 7 o'clock position, there should be a screw 180 degrees or 2 o'clock in the photo directly opposite on the other side, in the photo it appears to be missing. Every balance screw must be in pairs.

Wiliam, you have it!
Roland, Remember my check points way early in this post;
A couple things to check first;
1. Does it have the same error in face up and pendant up positions? A missing screw would certainly cause position timing errors by it's putting the Balance wheel seriously out of poise (balance).
2. Are there any missing timing screws on the Balance wheel? A missing timing screw WILL cause it to run consideraboly faster!

The missing screw IS why it is running too fast. If you cleaned the watch look around your stuff for that screw. It has to be the same size.

You need a Gold screw for that class of watch, so if you cannot find one, we need the screw size (head diameter and head length) to find one for you from an Elgin Parts movement.

Wow, you guys are great! Didn't even notice this, but do remember it being mentioned at the begining of this thread. I will measure the screw head diameter and length. Can anyone take the image I posted and repost with an arrow to the extact position that the screw needs to be installed? I got a bit confused with looking at the 7'oclock and then over to the 2 o'clock bit. Sorry getting on in years.

Is this where the screw is missing? Red arrow at 2pm

Yes, the balance should have a screw opposite each screw

Tom

Thank you Tom and all the rest! So does it have to be a timing screw from an Elgin, or is it a standard thread and I just need to find the same size head, and gold of course?
Thank you and have a great evening.
Roland.

Roland, I suggest that you arrange to have a PAIR of matching screws intalled. Then the balance wheel is best re-poised and the watch re-timed.

Thank you David, will do.

Well finally got the measurements for the gold timing screw. Very small compaired to the ones used on my 21j Wm. McKinley.
The 16s Elgin BWR grade 472 with an Invar Balance uses screws that are 1.09mm wide at the head. And 0.76mm deep at the head.
If anyone has a couple of these from an old Elgin balance that would be awesome.
Thank you all, Roland.

Well finally replaced a couple of timing screws and now this Elgin BWR is running like it was meant to. Thx, for all the advice.

Roland.

Glad to hear that Roland. I will postpone plans to send you more screws.