Fixed Bail?

April 17, 2010, 15:46

Larry Lamphier

Fixed Bail?

Hi guys, I just wonder if this is something that I just don't know or what. But I have a Hamilton size 16 case that looks just like a Hamilton model #16 case. The only thing is that it has a fixed bail. I have never seen one. Is it just someting that Hamilton put out and I just don,t know? The back cover reads HAMILTON WATCH COMPAMY, HAMILTON, PA. WATCH STAR CASE COMPANY, 10KT. GOLD FILLED. #4741011. All the numbers match on the case. It came with a 992B movement # C54191. Real nice condition too. Thanks for any help.

April 17, 2010, 18:20

Lindell V. Riddle

Hi Lawrence,

Not being altogether certain what you mean by "fixed bail" I will refrain from too much speculation until I am sure about what you mean. If you are calling the "bow" a "bail" and the case in question is still very tight with little use the impression of a fixed-position bow could result. Please do post a picture of your case and we can likely sort this out.

The actual Case 16 is from the 1950s and 1960s and they were marked "Rolled-Gold-Plate in every instance. As if to add additional confusion, in the late 1930s there was a case, identical in appearance to the later Case 16 but like your example it too was 10K Gold-Filled, you may have one of those and absent any other case-screw marks it could be original to your movement, read on. You are likely aware your number C54191 is a 1943 era movement, that is about the time Hamilton ran very low on materials and they are known to have used some odd looking and leftover cases.

I have two such oddities and both those cases are from Star with case numbers not far from yours.

Lindell

My odd cases are from the same time-frame and are original...

April 17, 2010, 20:17

Eric Unselt

Interesting case on the right, Lindell. The frame looks like a Keystone GF teardrop ...

April 17, 2010, 20:21

Eric Unselt

... while the bow and crown looks like they belong on a Star RGP case.

April 17, 2010, 20:34

Larry Lamphier

I tied my best but can't seem to get my picture to work. It says they are to large and I don't know how to make them smaller on this computer. Mine burned up about a week ago. Fire Dept over, the works!!

It is all one piece though. Looking at your pictures you can see where the bail would move. This one is just part of the case. Thank you so much for the info!

April 17, 2010, 20:41

Tom Brunton

l
Hi Lawrence,the trick is to set your camera to take regular size jpeg , I think 640x480 pixel pictures then they will load easily and you don't have to know how to re-size them or have any software to do that task, just ask your grandchild to re-set the camera LOL

April 18, 2010, 08:53

Buster Beck

Hi Lawrence,
You have my interest up

Please send me your pictures of the case and I will resize them and post them for you

regards,
bb
email; watchbbgo1@dishmail.net

April 18, 2010, 11:48

Krister Olsson

Hi Lawrence
If the Shugart book shows all Hamilton issued factory cases in size 16, the only one with a rigid bow is model #4. Little different engravings, but not that far off from model #16. Could it be that you have a model #4?
They are shown on page 234 - 235.
Regards
Krister

April 18, 2010, 12:06

Roland Glenn

Nice images Eric! Seriously nice!
I too think it's a fixed bow and the model 4 Lawrence.

Roland

April 18, 2010, 12:25

Larry Lamphier

Hi Krister
I just sent Buster the pictures. I have a model# 16, and as you will see when he posts them, they are the same. even the engravings. The crown is a little different, but I really think it has been changed, as it is a pull out as though it was a stem set.

April 18, 2010, 13:43

Lindell V. Riddle

1 of 3

Let's be clear on this, both of those cases I shared above are original, unaltered cases Hamilton issued cases they are entirely original with complete Hamilton and Star markingsjust as they should be.

Anyhow, Larry sent me his images, I believe it to be a leftover "Traffic Special" case used during the World War II shortage of materials I mentioned previously. But unfortunately the case Larry has was altered.

First image shows Larry's case as he found it..

April 18, 2010, 13:43

Lindell V. Riddle

2 of 3

I called Larry and he sent me his images while we discussed the variants of these cases. When they arrived, the images were very large and I saw what you will all see in the image immediately below.

As the original crown and bow wore out someone at some point in the past replaced the crown with one that is not a very good match and then they gold-soldered the heavily worn bow in place so as to essentially keep it from falling off the case and so they could still use the watch. That explains the "fixed-bail" that Larry referred to meaning the bow was "fixed" which turned out to be the bow was actually soldered in place.

Look closely, the bow is gold-soldered in place...

April 18, 2010, 13:43

Lindell V. Riddle

3 of 3

Moving to the case-back, the original markings are there as they should be. Larry confirmed the frame number and bezel numbers match as well. Interestingly, the case number 4741011 on his is fairly close to the two I showed above. On the left number 4704932 and 4704953 is shown on the right. Consider the fact those two cases are so very different yet just twenty-one numbers apart.

Thanks Larry, this turned out to be a very interesting topic.

Lindell

April 18, 2010, 17:14

Krister Olsson

Hi all
That certainly gave me some idea! Why? Because it irritates me when the bow folds over while wearing the watch in my pocket. I usually wear it without a chain, since it´s even worse with the chain. However, it can´t be done on just any case. On many European watches (that I normally wear), the stem has to be removed in order to take the movement out. (Come to think of it, it might not be such a good idea after all.)
Regards
Krister

April 18, 2010, 17:36

Larry Lamphier

Lindell, all the thanks belongs to YOU!!! You took all afternoon, and your personal time, to spend with me on the phone to figure this out, along with many other things I might add. It is Not the way I hoped, but none the less, it is clear to everyone what it is. What you showed me was very helpfull, and informative. Thank you!
To everyone who took the time to try to help on this, thanks.
Debbie, I will take the time to read what you sent me. Lindell walked me through it on the phone in our first conversation, now I have a LINK!

Maybe I will be able to post like the rest of you next time.
I think I'll just finish cleaning it up, put a dial on it, and carry it. Krister, I like the idea of a fixed bow also! Thanks again everyone!

Larry

April 18, 2010, 23:10

Buster Beck

Hi Lawrence,
I apolize for just now getting back to you. I was fixing to downsize your images when I looked at the post and saw the issue has been resolved.
I didn't know I was going to be gone all day, so I apoligize again. When I looked at your pictures that was my guess, that the bow had been soldered in place. With Lindell's observation, I second that motion

Regards,
bb

April 19, 2010, 12:24

Lindell V. Riddle

Just to finish this topic and for the record particularly for those who might not be familiar with the Hamilton Case 16 let alone the previous "Traffic Special" here is an image showing an original, unaltered bow and crown. Look closely at the original crown, spacing and relationship to other components.

Bow and crown as they originally appeared...

April 19, 2010, 15:36

Scott A. Whittey

I believe that the bail is the hook end of a watch chain where it attaches to the pendent bow or swing ring

April 20, 2010, 05:17

Lindell V. Riddle

There may be more than one use of the term. For example, I know a "jewelry bail" is the loop that goes over the bow on a small ladies watch so it can then be suspended from a neck chain. They have other uses as well and come in a wide variety of styles.

A "bail" installed on an 0-size pocket watch...

April 20, 2010, 06:40

Buster Beck

Bail, can be used as a noun to describe an arched handle, usually found on a bucket or kettle

I have oft heard some ole timers describe or misdescribe the watch bow as a bail

I would assume

thats whats being described here and its application

regards,
bb

April 20, 2010, 13:50

Lindell V. Riddle

That is entirely correct, the topic is about the bow on this watch that Larry referred to as a "bail" in the title and early posts. Bottom line, we figured out what Larry has and that's what counts.

April 20, 2010, 14:28

Larry Lamphier

Yes we did, and poor Lindell, I have no idea how many times he corrected me while trying to type and get my pictures up for everyone to see.
Well, a crystel went in it today and a new dial will be going on it soon. Then in my pocket!!