Dating a KW Deuber Silverine Case

July 16, 2004, 06:20

John D. Duvall

I know these cases are difficult if not impossible to date but does anyone have an idea of the date for a KW Deuber Silverine case with serial number 963292? I'm trying to figure out if the case could be original to the movement which is an Elgin serial number 2352899 made in 1886. I believe Dueber had made around 500,000 cases by 1877.

I'm restoring the watch for my neighbor (89 years young). He thought it was a Civil War watch but we know for sure the movement isn't. However, the case could have contained an old 1857 movement originally and then replaced with the Elgin but I think Dueber didn't start making cases until 1865.

Thanks for any help!

July 16, 2004, 07:35

Lindell V. Riddle

John,

The authoritative "History of the American Watch Case" by Warren H. Niebling dates the Dueber Watch Case Company from 1865 just as you mentioned. I often puzzle over case numbers, wondering if they really are a consecutive serial numbering system. For example, an Elgin from 1884 is housed in an apparently original Dueber Coin Silver with the 149794 number. However a Hampden, also from 1884 is in what looks to be its original Dueber Coin silver case bearing the 494551 number. Tell me that makes any sense!

Some of our present day confusion would also stem from the fact these watches were cased at the jeweler. That allows for considerable time in the retail jeweler's inventory before casing. We also know the makers would over-build and then store inventory in their vaults for years. Perhaps the numbers restarted from time to time or maybe they had different number sequences on different case models. Although "we're learning something new every day" somehow I doubt we'll ever figure it all out.

Hope this helps a little,

Lindell

July 16, 2004, 07:40

Jack Davis

Hi John.

I will have to double check this, but it was my understanding that silverine and silverode cases were not manufactured until the 1870's sometime.

Any movement in such a case would almost certainly be a recase.

Jack

July 16, 2004, 19:55

Sheila Gilbert

Lindell, Can you tell me where you got the book? I did a search and couldn't find it anywhere. Only one link and it wouldn't work.
Not at Amazon either. Can you tell me where I can get it?
Thank you

July 17, 2004, 12:43

Hans Dahlke

I would like to hear more on this subject. It is my belief that these serial numbers are not consecutive production serial numbers, instead they must include some sort of code that either includes the date of manufacture, the jeweler or wholesale house that ordered the cases, the watch movement the case is manufactured for (for example, cases for E. Howard watches are sized differently), or something else. But without original watch case manufacturer's records we will probably never decipher this mystery.

By the way, Niebling's book is very hard to find since he originally published only a limited number of copies. Try advertising, or try used book finders such as alibris or abe (something book exchange) on the Internet.

Hans

July 17, 2004, 14:50

Lindell V. Riddle

Everyone,

Hans is right, "History of the American Watch Case" by Warren H. Niebling was apparently privately published. The copies I've seen have no copyright statement on them. If that is correct, there may be no actual copyright ownership, meaning it could well be in the public domain. I have the impression there may originally have been a thousand or so printed. Each of those I've seen are numbered under a thousand. One of our members recently sent me a spiral-bound photocopy, otherwise I would not have one. If anyone has an original please share the information from the title and copyright pages.

The publisher was Whitmore Publishing of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Here is the same name today in located Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and their "Welcome Page" shows 1961 as their first year in business...

http://www.whitmorepublishing.com/

If we could determine copyright ownership and possible existence of the original plates it is at least conceivable additional, updated copies could be printed. If anyone can help find a phone number, please do... I was unsuccessful in that.

Perhaps some of the long out-of-print reference materials such as this could be made available both on paper and On-Line through our Chapter 185 Discussion Site in the not too distant future.

Lindell

July 17, 2004, 16:47

John Pavlik

Book # 1075 The number is hand Stamped, not printed..

July 17, 2004, 16:49

John Pavlik

2nd

July 19, 2004, 14:05

Hans Dahlke

I found two copies for sale over the Internet. One at www.alibris.com for $399.95 and the other at www.abebooks.com for $400.00. I am certain that these are from two separate dealers.

Several years ago I saw one for sale at a Regional from one of the booksellers for $125. Prices have certainly gone up since then. But then, one can always make an offer.

An alternative to spending this kind of money on a book would be to obtain copies of Niebling's articles in the NAWCC Bulletin (he had a series on watch case companies in the old small bulletins). You can find the volume numbers and publication dates from the NAWCC library on-line catalog.

Hans

July 19, 2004, 18:07

John Pavlik

Whoa!!!! How do you spell SOLD...

If any one is interested, copy #1075, is for sale at those prices...

I am not a hard guy I will take the 399 and not gouge you for the 400.....

John

July 19, 2004, 18:54

Terry Hill

Hans,
I have seen some of the articles in the old bulletins, they don't seem 'complete'... and i have not found article #4 (i think)... but saw the other 3... Do you know if it was only 4?

July 21, 2004, 14:31

Hans Dahlke

A search through the Bulletin Index shows the following parts:
Part 1 vol. 13, no. 141, pg. 1002
Part 2 vol. 13, no. 142, pg. 1158
Part 3 vol. 14, no. 143, pg. 28
Part 4 vol. 14, no. 144, pg. 167

There are also some individual articles on cases and companies listed under Warren Niebling.

Hans