I just got hold of a great looking Elgin 3 finger bridge watch 1st run. When I look it up in Shugart the 17J model is surprisingly marked as a 3 star watch I have seen many of these before but never a 21J version?, according to the Elgin site there was only 4000 total of the 21J model over 10 years is this more common than the 17J or am I missing something? Also the book only quote as OF this is a HC?, and is simply marked adjusted, would that be 3 adj?

Nice find Chris! That's a very pretty movement.

It is a Grade 156 hunter movement. It is noted as RRG in the Ehrhardt/Meggers Beginning to End book.

The only 17j open face 3F Bridge movement that is adjusted to 5P listed on the Elgin site is the grade 243. Production quantities of the 243 is shown as 4000, the same as your grade. The 243 is also one of the "Lace Doily" movements (shown below) which is probably why it may be valued more highly but doesn't really explain the 3 stars.

There are 2 21j OF 3FB movement grades (162 and 270). Neither are identified as adjusted to 5P by Wayne. The 162 is another of the Lace Doilies with a production count of 4000 and the 270 is a fairly high runner (12000) marked 270 or Veritas.

I believe Adj would mean 3P in this case.

I own a 21j Veritas grade 270 3 finger bridge model that Samie Smith just recently cleaned for me. It has a hairlined Monty dial, and is a beauty.

I've seen Veritas models, and I've seen grade 270s, but never a Veritas 270, and they're not mentioned in the Veritas article that Kent and Ed wrote. I'm assuming it's one of those 'off production runs' that they mention in part 2 of the series.

Regards! Mark

You're right Mark.

I believe all Wayne implies on his notes on the grade 270 is that some are marked 270 and others marked Veritas.

Wish I had either one!

Regards,
Ron

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your quick response, I see in Shugart there is a 3F Bridge 17J Adj Ni GJS DMK HC but no entry for the 21J version, do you think that has been missed out of the book?

These are interesting watches. They can still be had at reasonable prices. I have the 21J 156 and 162. I also own a 243(3FB) and a 161 which is 3/4 plate and has the fancy winding wheels. I am missing the 246 which had a run of only 2000. Therefore, the 17J 246 is scarcer than the 21J models.

I would say that they missed it Chris!

The guide's listings for these grades are pretty vague. At best, you can only try to read between the lines.

If I had to guess the value of a grade 156 without a case, I would ignore 21j/18k case line, the 21j/Adj5P/OF line and the 3* line as that is one of the Lace Doily (fancy winding wheel) grades. I would think the 156 would be somewhere in the range of the others.

I agree with Jerry. These are attractive watches with low production (for Elgin). With the exception of the Lace Doilies, the prices seem pretty reasonable.

Regards,
Ron

Mark,
I'm not sure which column you are referring to, but in our column in the Feb 1997 Bulletin we listed 12 separate runs of the Grade 270, the first 8 being marked "270" and the last 4 being marked "Veritas". The production split is about 8,000 "Grade 270" and 4,000 "Veritas". The "Veritas" marked Grade 270 movements were NOT engraved "Grade 270".

I have a 3 fingered bridge one marked "Veritas". Mine is marked with only adjusted.

Tom

Ed, I'm referring to the column from 2004 (the issue is at home, so I don't remember the month). In part two on 16s Veritas models, there are no 270's listed anywhere in the article sidebar lists. All of part one was on 18s Veritas models. I was not aware of the 1997 column. Sorry about that.

I also had to re-read what I wrote in regards to my markings, and see the reason for your capital letters...I did NOT mean mine was marked both Veritas AND 270. Mine is marked Veritas only. I was referring to the article I had read in the 2004 issue, and that since mine was a 270, marked 'Veritas', and it wasn't mentioned, it could have been one of the 'out of production' movements you and Kent DID mention. Sorry for THAT confusion as well.

Thanks for the update. I'll try and find that 1997 issue.

Regards! Mark

Mark,
The two part column (April 2004 and June 2005) was on the Veritas Model, which were all 18 size movements. Both Parts 1 and 2 were limited to discussing the 3/4 plate Model 8 (and briefly the hunting Model 9). (Kent & I still disagree about whether Elgin intended the Model 9 to be a "Veritas Model" or not.)
The Grade 270, being a 16 size, along with the other 16 size grades marked "Veritas" were not included.
I added the comment about the lack of "No. 270" markings on the Veritas to let other collectors know that they either have to be able to recognize what the movement looks like or have access to an Elgin serial number list to look it up.

Understood, and thanks!

Regards! Mark

The Elgin site contains a reproduced table of Elgin Adjustment Numbers.

Wayne claims that these numbers were used in internal Elgin documents to define the adjustments made for each grade. His serial database does not provide these codes however. [Or am I missing something somewhere?].

Does anyone know where these codes might be found?

Chris

According to the 1903 Oy Company Jewelry Catalog on the Elgin site, the 156 and 162 grades sold for $100 and the 270 was priced at half that!

I would certainly think that should figure into the current value!

Ron

It is my impression that the 270 is not as well finished in general as the 156/162. In fact I think they were probably less expensive than the 155/161. Does anyone have an ad showing those with the 270. The 243 and 246 are replacements for the 155/161 but they may have a slightly lower finish as well.

Early 155/156/161/162 are found with gold escape wheels on occassion, which is a nice additional touch.

There are also the handful of 162 that are marked Lord Elgin.

The Veritas above looks a lot better than most 270's I have seen.

Well, in defense of the 270, I have to say that the damaskeening in mine is about the most elaborate I've ever seen in an Elgin...and I've owned a few. I really wish Samie had taken a few photos before sending it back to me from servicing. Just about every surface in the watch has been engraved, including all the lower surfaces that can be see by the naked eye. So it may have been a lower grade in the books, but based on mine (or at least in my personal experience), it's about the prettiest one I've ever had the pleasure to own to date. I'm sure it being a 'Veritas' grade is the reason for the extra work, though. (still trying to get that straght in my head, Ed. Veritas model and Veritas grade. Hummm.(grins))

Then again, I could just be more easily impressed by a standard watch's innards that most.

Regards! Mark

Everone Nice looking watches thanks for showing them..
Mark i forgot to take pictures of your Veritas..

That's my fault, Samie. I forgot to ask you.

Regards! Mark

Lindell

Seeing the photo of your BWR hunter triggered a case of de ja vue!

I have a friend with 12283851; given to her dad by the president of the Milwaukee Road. I don't believe either actually used the watch as it is in like new condition as is yours.

She has a standing offer from me but I will never see it in my possession.

While not rare by some standards, the grade 341 is rare for Elgin with only two runs of 1000 movements each started in 1905 and 1906.

Ron

These are great and I believe underappreciated watches.

Below, you'll see the unusual dial on number 13279671 the 21-Jewel Veritas in a solid-gold case that is likewise worthy of our attention. Of course, finding Railroad Watches in solid-gold cases are the very definition of uncommon!

Santa-Fe Logo Henry S. Montgomery Patent Dial...

Lindell.
Outstanding! Very nice watch!
I don't believe I have ever seen the Santa Fe on an Elgin, or was it, and I missed it?

Is the Santa Fe common on the Elgin?

more, more, pleeeeese!

Lindell that is a beautiful watch and dial..

I happen to be going thru some of my Elgin stuff and have decided to do some servicing. I will completely disassemble each movement. Was wondering if I should document the internal details, as these cannot be fully appreciated when the movement is cased.

I was considering posting the pics of each movement's key components to compare the finish quality. I am thinking these movements are all from the 10 million runs and should represent the highest quality finishing techniques used at Elgin during this time period. The movements are grade 156, 170, 180.

Here are the "shots" I am going for:
Winding wheels
Barrel
Train wheels
Escape wheel
Train jewel settings
Cap jewel settings
Pallet Jewels
Pallet
Roller table
Regulator
Top Plate finish
setting componet finish
Screw heads

Does this sound interesting?

-Sean

Sean,
That would be WONDERFUL! I would love to see each and every part you have the time to show us.
I have been looking for something like this for a long time. PLEASE post! Some very nice watches you have there too!

Lindell,
That is such a beautiful movement! I went back and took another look, and it's a honey.

While my impression is not documented, it is my impression that the 156 and 162 are as high grade as Elgin gets, short of the 21J convertibles. They are beatufully finshed throughout, and right near the top of American watches.

Mike

I will begin to post pics mid next week due to family commitments.

Happy Holidays,
Sean

Sheila

I have included another photo below that looks good enough to go on the tree.

Sean

That's a fantastic offer and I for one eagerly awit your photos.

Happy Holidays to one and all,
Ron

Ron,
Great information, and you have a beautiful watch there! I just love the look of the 3 finger bridge models, and I found some I didn't even remember I had, while logging them in my database!


PS Great information on the watches, Thank you!