Got my 992B

January 03, 2017, 16:27

Donald C. Henderson

Got my 992B

I have been feeling for a while that my RR collection was incomplete without a Hamilton 992B. I found a pretty nice one and finally pulled the trigger. It dates from 1944 with the serial # of C112311 and I'm pretty sure the Model 11 case it's in is the original one since it's serial of K 061011 points to the same timeframe. It has a few small scratches on the crystal that are not noticeable unless under bright light and the case back has a small dent. The porcelain dial is flawless and the watch sets, winds, and runs excellently. I'm pretty happy with my purchase.

January 03, 2017, 16:29

Donald C. Henderson

Movement C112311

January 03, 2017, 16:30

Donald C. Henderson

Inside case back K 061011

January 03, 2017, 18:27

Dan Carter

I love the 992B. It is one of my go to / daily carry watches!

January 03, 2017, 19:23

Mike Benda

Great photos
Go Hamilton!
One of the best.
How did you take pic 1?
Mike

January 03, 2017, 19:33

Larry Lamphier

That is a nice one Donald!

Speaking of the dial, that one didn't come out until around 1947 as it is a "clipped ten" dial.

I meant to add that I do have the dial that goes with that year Donald if you want to make it all correct. You have a nice 1944 in a 1943 case, so if it has the right dial, you will have an all correct, Type 3, Hamilton 992B with the Gold center wheel!

Regards,
Larry

January 03, 2017, 20:18

Kevin Hoffman

Great watch Donald , I don't have one yet either , I was bidding on this one and got scared ! so I bought a nice 21 jewel hampden 105

January 03, 2017, 22:15

Billy Kuhn

Kevin that is a 992E, It has ELINVAR on the pallet fork bridge.

January 04, 2017, 00:07

Donald C. Henderson

quote:
Great photos Go Hamilton!One of the best.How did you take pic 1?

I took the pictures with my 3.2 mp Canon A70 camera. I used the macro focus feature with no flash. Then I cropped and resized the pics using IrfanView.

January 04, 2017, 00:11

Donald C. Henderson

quote:
Speaking of the dial, that one didn't come out until around 1947 as it is a "clipped ten" dial.I meant to add that I do have the dial that goes with that year Donald if you want to make it all correct. You have a nice 1944 in a 1943 case, so if it has the right dial, you will have an all correct, Type 3, Hamilton 992B with the Gold center wheel!

Could you show me the dial you have? Is there a reference somewhere that shows the 992B dials and what years they were made? I found info on the movements and cases but just pictures of the dials. I think mine is the 536. Is that correct?

January 04, 2017, 06:52

Keith Krugzda

Another fine example of a thread that highlights the benefit of membership in IHC. The knowledge unselfishly shared is invaluable.

I, too, have been the recipient of many suggestions by our members concerning my watch purchases. Those suggestions have led to a collection of examples that, although not totally original, are period correct.

Thank you!

January 04, 2017, 11:43

Mike Budzynski

Very nice watch!

January 04, 2017, 13:12

Larry Lamphier

These dials can get very interesting, as Hamilton went through there troubles during and after the war.

Clipped ten dial info

Here is the correct dial along with the "clipped" 10 dial. Notice how the font in the numbering is even heavier on the earlier 992B RWS dials. Another way you can tell if a dial is a post WWII 992B dial.

January 04, 2017, 13:17

Larry Lamphier

Here is the correct dial on a 1940 Type 1, Hamilton 992B Serial #C4130.

January 04, 2017, 13:55

Donald C. Henderson

I actually prefer the lighter weight numbers on the clipped dial. Now I have a hypothesis for you.

I have read that in the last years of WW2, Hamilton stopped distributing watches to consumers and concentrated on military production. I have also seen that in that same period, they had problems with producing double sunk dials. I have read speculation that the clipped dial came about as a result of the conversion to only single sunk where, when double sunk production was resumed, some of the dials were stamped with the dies from the single sunk variant where the numbers were closer to the middle. So, when the double sunk dial was assembled, the number 10 got slightly clipped. Of course this is all speculation

Here's my question. Is it possible that my movement was finished in 1944 but not actually shipped out until after the war in 1945, or even 1946 or '47? The consumer cases may also have had built up inventory. I'm just speculating, but after reading everything I could find on the subject, I don't see concrete proof that the dial on my watch could not be original to the watch. In any case, I think I'll keep the watch as it is since I like the dial better and have seen that it is much less common.

I do certainly appreciate the offer though.

January 04, 2017, 16:05

Larry Lamphier

The only thing we have to go on is the research that other people have spent years doing. I for one know really nothing except for what I have learned here on IHC185, and the research I have done myself. One of the things is sticking pretty well with Hamilton. I have taken hundreds of them apart, and paid close attention to the different things I have learned here. One thing for sure is that I have not seen the clipped ten dial on a 992B earlier than a 1946. That being said, could your hypothesis have any merit to it? Who knows, maybe. In the end though, it is YOUR watch, and you have to like what you have there, and unless you are selling them like I do that's what really matters.

I would prefer to keep the one I just showed you here, as it is the only one I have, and I have 4 or 5 of the clipped 10 dials. Knowing what I know and believe to be fact, I can only put them on the 46/47, and maybe a 1948 movement.

I like your watch because it was made the year I was born, and I have seen very few made in 1944 for some reason.

Best Regards,
Larry

January 04, 2017, 22:00

Donald C. Henderson

Well you obviously know more about the watches than I do and the facts of what you have observed are pretty convincing. If my dial is not original, then maybe it was a replacement for a damaged one. The small difference in years is not important to me.

I was born in '48 by the way so we're pretty much contemporaries.

January 05, 2017, 00:50

Buster Beck

Just for kicks, grins, food for thought, amusement, and knowledge, here are a couple of pre 1918 Variant "Clipped 10 SCRIPT DS" dials from our available data postings !!

[FWIW] I would say watch movement C-112311 and Keystone Model 11 Case #K061011 were both from 1945.

regards,
bb

Hamilton #581 DS Clipped 10 SCRIPT Dial;

January 05, 2017, 00:55

Buster Beck

Hamilton #436 Clipped 10 DS SCRIPT Dial;

January 05, 2017, 08:59

Larry Lamphier

Good points Buster. Thank you for correcting me on the years of the movement and case. I should have looked closer.

What are your thoughts on the dial?

Regards,
Larry

January 05, 2017, 09:56

Buster Beck

Well the Clipped 10 hasn't previously been seen on a 992B before 1946, so I would agree with you.

With all the members of the Armed Forces returning home from the war, I imagine there was a pretty good demand for the 992B's at all the retail locations across the country, so I doubt a 1945 watch would be shelved at the factory until 1946. Of course those are my thoughts and aren't gospel !!

But as always in our collections we wouldn't want our pieces to be questionable or in the "what if" categories of speculation. I'm only saying that if we were showing this particular watch to a knowledgeable collector and they mentioned that they weren't aware of that dial on a 992B watch prior to 1946, we could never convince them of anything less !

With over half a million of the 992B's being made, its not a big deal to put them back into their correct, without question, era correct examples. The good news is that it won't cost any money to swap those dials back around since there are fewer clipped 10 dials than the regular variant when and if someone decides to swap them around.

Either way, it's no big deal, so whatever makes a person happy is how I would roll !!

regards,
bb

January 05, 2017, 10:35

Larry Lamphier

Thank you Buster.

I really like the clipped ten dials you have there!

Regards,
Larry

January 05, 2017, 13:51

Donald C. Henderson

quote:
With all the members of the Armed Forces returning home from the war, I imagine there was a pretty good demand for the 992B's at all the retail locations across the country, so I doubt a 1945 watch would be shelved at the factory until 1946. Of course those are my thoughts and aren't gospel !!

Consider this. The servicemen returning home would not all want to pay for a railroad grade watch and might go for a lower grade 16s or even 12s watch and I'm sure many of them, if not the majority, would buy a wristwatch instead of a pocket watch at that point in time. They certainly weren't all railroad men in civilian life and Hamilton was not the only company making new watches. They also may have just returned to using the watch they left behind when they entered the service. The war also didn't end until September in 1945 and the soldiers didn't all return home immediately.

Also just my thoughts.

I still think it's possible, if not likely, that a '46 dial could have wound up on a '45 movement. Either way, I don't care. I'm happy with the watch the way it is and I'm sure that if I ever wanted to sell it, I could get at least what I paid. ($300).

I have also read of instances where watches, (not necessarily Hamiltons), were not shipped out for as long as 3 years after they were made.

January 06, 2017, 07:35

Mark Cross

True, Donald, but that wasn't the situation during WW2, and ESPECIALLY not at Hamilton.

Watch companies actually ran OUT of inventory and were working 24 hours a day trying to keep up. People were even asked to surrender or bring with them old watches to be put back into time service that had previously been disallowed for railroad use, including 18s watches, as they just didn't have enough new railroad watches to go around.

The 992B was also being up-jeweled to 22j and used as the base for military 4992B's, so that cut even deeper into the watches being made for railroad use.

It was a few years AFTER the war before Hamilton (and other) watch companies were able to start selling to the public again, as they just had no inventory left.

A 992B went out the door as fast as the last screw was tightened and watch timed during that period.

Personally, I have no problem one way or the other with your watch, as it's been stated many times on this very site they were scratching and grabbing any random part that came across their bench by the end of the war to put a finished watch together. Though it may not be 'catalog' correct, it could still have been what a Hamilton watchmaker had on hand to create a finished watch and pushed out the door at the end of the war.

Who knows?

You have a beauty there! Get it serviced, get a good chain and carry that fine time piece!

Regards! Mark

January 06, 2017, 08:30

Donald C. Henderson

I can't believe how well this watch runs. I wound it all the way and wrote down the time it started running. It stopped 54 hours and 35 minutes later!. The time was also within 3 seconds of when it started.

January 06, 2017, 17:09

Jack Marsh

Great Watch Donald, Enjoy !

January 07, 2017, 01:22

Larry Lamphier

Mark that is the BEST explanation I have read yet about how Hamilton was operating, and making things work during this very trying time to produce watches for the Military and to also keep watches supplied to the buying public. Thank You!

The one thing to try to remember here though when talking about the dial here on this watch, is that it wasn't even produced yet when the movement was produced and shipped. I believe that Donald is right when he says that this dial could have been used to "replace" the original dial that was on the watch for "whatever" reason. That being said, this is a beautiful watch, and if Donald likes this dial, then why not.

Regards,
Larry

January 07, 2017, 06:59

Dr. Debbie Irvine

Donald,

A few years back Lindell posted this interesting 1940s narrative:

quote:

During WWII things would actually be quite different as new watches were very difficult to come by. In 1942 my dad was hired by the Bessemer and Lake Erie Railroad in Greenville, Pennsylvania and he was asked to come up with a Railroad Timekeeper. My dad proudly produced the South-Bend 17-Jewel 18-size Marked Grade 313 that his grandfather had purchased new some thirty years before.

Many years later my dad explained to me the Railroad Time Inspector kept that South-Bend watch for ten days of service, adjustment and evaluation. At the end of that time it was certified to enter time service. My dad would then carry that reliable South-Bend on the Bessemer Railroad for the next ten years.

January 07, 2017, 08:36

Mike Benda

Wonderful mental picture, our passion is based on these watches being workers tools.
Thanks for all you do for horology!
Mike

January 09, 2017, 07:11

Mark Cross

Thanks Larry.

I was mainly commenting on the idea of Hamilton holding a movement at the factory for several years before a sale during that particular period of history. They were leaving the plant as fast as they were being made.

As to the dial, I totally agree it must have been a replacement. I'm VERY pleased to see it is an enamel version too, as I just don't like melamine dials at all. I've owned several in the past, and they just don't work!

Regards! Mark

January 09, 2017, 10:10

Larry Lamphier

I agree Mark. If you think about it, they couldn't even keep up with the dials and hands for them at the time.

As for the melamine dials, I have 40+ 992B's that are dated after the melamine dials came out. Every one of them need a dial, as the melamine dials are just gone!

Talk about parting watches out, I just may have to do just that with these. I have them in the cases with hands, but no dials. Part of the learning curve I guess.

Regards,
Larry