16s Illinois 17J Grade 167 - marked variations

November 04, 2016, 19:29

Clark Reed

16s Illinois 17J Grade 167 - marked variations

Here in photo #1 is the damaskeen pattern of s/n 5,525,077. This is a very late production of the marked 167 with an almost fishscale damaskeen pattern, as opposed to the slightly earlier production pictured below. This one dates to 1934 according to the Fat Book and 1931-2 in Meggers & Earhardt big blue Illinois book. Surely a grey area as the Illinois movements acquired by Hamilton were marketed in the depression years likely by demand rather than sequential serial numbers. I have been fascinated with damaskeening differences and styles for 58 years, and Illinois is a sure bet to dazzle me.... I hope your interest is kindled and maybe aroused, also

November 04, 2016, 19:35

Clark Reed

Here is the slightly earlier damaskeen pattern of s/n 5,351,920 which is more of the parallel line style of other 167's I have seen. Date of this s/n is also somewhat nebulous being in a 1929 - 1930 - 1931 year bracket according to the Fat Book, and marked in the 1930 year period in Meggers & Earhardt in the margin. Note - both are marked 167 marked 167

November 04, 2016, 19:37

Clark Reed

Here is the rear lid on the case for the later # 5,525,077 No other screw marks are visible here.

November 04, 2016, 19:38

Clark Reed

Here is the metal dial on the later s/n 5,525,077
The earlier 167 has a porcelain double sunk dial.

November 04, 2016, 19:41

Clark Reed

A slightly different angle of the photo on s/n 5,525,077 and a hair different exposure to show detail.

November 05, 2016, 16:55

Lindell V. Riddle

Hi Clark,

I thought a couple comments in your Illinois Grade 167 topic might be of interest to you and others in order to reflect the fact that some movement number lists are more reliable than others.

The years of manufacture on most watch companies shown in the "Complete Guide to Watches" were arrived at by dividing the whole of production by the years in business and mixing in a bit of guesswork whereas the listings including hand written annotations in the big blue Illinois Encyclopedia are directly from original factory records.

Here is the way I explained it when referencing Hamilton factory records a few years ago...

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"If I might share a story about these Hamilton numbers. One of my first really serious watch purchases back in 1998 was a fully documented Hamilton 922 with both boxes and all appropriate papers. It had been factory engraved and sold with 1932 shown as the date presented. However the watch guide listed it as being from 1938 in their number listings.

So one day I put in a call to ask the author * about this and he said their list had been put together by simply dividing the approximate total production by the number of years in business with an artificial number assigned to each year. That essentially assumes the same number of movements every year, which can cause a lot of confusion."

* (the late and great Cooksey Shugart, with whom I eventually developed a meaningful friendship.)

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That explanation was from when we posted the "Gelson List" in early 2006 at this point...

"Hamilton Movement Number Listings and Hamilton Horology Reference Materials"

It is important to recognize that most of the movement number listings we find are flawed and should be taken with the proverbial "grain of salt" rather than literally as they are in reality estimates. We treasure the "Complete Guide to Watches" and urge everyone to support both the watch guide and IHC185 with buying the book and renewing your IHC Membership each year.

Clark, your research on the Illinois Grade 167 is interesting and worthwhile.

Keep up the good work!

Lindell

November 05, 2016, 19:18

Clark Reed

Lindell - Thank you so much for the pertinent information and the appreciation and interest in this area of collecting. Certainly, the "assignment" of production dates was governed by manufacturing schedules . . . but also demand from retailers for items they sold from catalogs and literature. This would be especially important in the early years of The Great Depression of the early '30's because of the reduced inventory levels of watchmaker/jewelry stores at that economically painful time. Catalogs and literature in binders were used in many businesses in that period to garner customers that were likely more sure of what they wanted to order, than merely a spontaneous and impulsive purchase. The cost of inventory would restrict the variety of choices from retailers in a down economy, and was essential for many in order to stay in business. Of course, history is littered with examples of poor management, and even poorer timing of items to be inventoried that might NEVER SELL.
The information available today for collectors has been in some ways "cursory" and even "sketchy" in its accuracy and thoroughness, but it is an incentive to dig even deeper for those who are most interested in ALL ASPECTS of this hobby beyond merely, scarcity and value . . . all the way to accurate ages and volume of production. I appreciate this delightful site for both the information shared, and the common thread of interest is these terrific historical treasures that remind us that time is not redeemable in any other currency, or commodity. And thanks to Lindell for encouragement and the conservation of information that has been done for us. Stay the course . . .