Illinois Bunn - 21j 60hr - Identification Questions

November 23, 2012, 10:19

Jon Hart

I was reading this below link put together by Lindell:

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...1029912/m/5301099323

My question would be did Illinois make the 21 JEWEL Bunn 60 hr MOTOR BARREL in TYPE I, II AND III WITH "A" & "B" VARIANTS?

The below serial # yields a result of:

Grade: Bunn Special

Ruby Jewels
Movement Serial Number: 5060535
Estimated Production Year: 1928
Run Quantity: 1000
Size: 16s
Jewels: 21j
Movement Configuration: Openface
Movement Finish: Nickel
Model: 14
Movement Setting: Lever
Plate: 3/4 Plate
Barrel: Motor
Adjusted: Yes
Adjusted to Positions: 6
Railroad Grade: Yes
Notes: Type III 60hr. Notes: Type III 60hr.

Which states it is a Type III

True or False?

November 23, 2012, 12:35

Tom Weinstock

Jon,

I have a 21J, Sixty Hour, without the "Co." on the end (pictured), I also have a few of the ubiquitous variety with the "Co." So, my answer would be yes, though I don't think I've seen them officially referred to in that way.

Hope this helps.
Tom

November 23, 2012, 13:05

Jon Hart

Thanks Tom,

Mrbadwatch had one listed on the bay...

He described it as a type III

November 23, 2012, 13:07

Tom Weinstock

lol@mrbadwatch

December 03, 2012, 19:32

Tom Weinstock

I've been thinking about this since Jon posted the original thread. I wonder how many of these 21J 60Hr watches are out there without the "Co." on the end. I have only seen two...the one I have and another I'd seen on the Bay. I assume there's really no way to tell? When I look up the serial from mine it says the "Co." is supposed to be there (see pic). Thoughts anyone?

December 04, 2012, 10:06

Jon Hart

Tom,

I never noticed till you mentioned it...

December 04, 2012, 14:28

Jared Brinker

It was my understanding from another thread on IHC someplace that the Co. was dropped on them when they were bought out by Hamilton... I have one just over 5,000,000 that has the Co. on it. The price guide shows hamilton buying them at about the 5,100,000 area and both of the ones you are speaking of would have been after that buyout.

Thanks,

Jared

December 04, 2012, 14:37

Edward L. Parsons, Jr.

Jared is right, so the A and B sub-variants designated by Lindell apply only to the Type III. The Type IIIB was made after the Hamilton takeover.

December 04, 2012, 18:35

Lindell V. Riddle

Ed is correct.

Now, even though what follows may be long, in effort to respond to posts and expand the information about what we now call "Type III A" and "Type III B" variants, get comfortable, here are some additional details...

It is very, very important to understand the "Type" designations we all associate with Illinois movements were originally made by the late William "Bill" Meggers and found in his "Volume 2, American Pocket Watches, Illinois Watch Co." book that we consider to be the "Illinois Encyclopedia" (and repeated in other sources copied from Meggers' work) but in fact none of them, and I repeat NONE of the Illinois Watch "Types" are in any way "official" factory designations. They do not ever appear in any "official" company records, literature, parts listings or advertising, what we designate as different basic variant "Types" were originally coined by Bill Meggers to identify the various evolutionary changes in movement markings, what are in industry known as "running changes" that were apparently considered as little or no importance at the time back at the time when these watches were produced.

Those who designed and built these watches all those years ago would be surprised at how we obsess over and even assign a premium in many instances to what simply amounted to marking variations without mechanical differences.

Now, let us move to the "Type III A" and "Type III B" variants of what Meggers only called "Type III" variants. Meggers described what he called a "Type III Bunn Special" as being signed as "Illinois Watch Co." below "Bunn Special" on the movement without realizing some were also finished with "Illinois Watch" without "Co." in the signature. When Hamilton bought the Illinois Watch Company it became a subsidiary of Hamilton and no longer a company as such so the "Company" was removed from the previous Illinois Watch Company name. It appears that Meggers erroneously believed the change in movement signature did not begin until the advent of Hamilton-influenced Grade 161 and 163 movement markings, but clearly it came to fruition earlier than he believed.

Meggers makes no mention of these additional "Type III" variants in notes or his annotated production tables, but as explained in 2008 with our unprecedented ability to acquire and share knowledge, today we know better.

Several years ago Steve Middlesworth and I began to notice we were finding numerous movements that prove the 60-Hour "Type III" movements were in fact produced in two versions, not just one. Then, in that October 2008 posting we posted this information when specifically discussing the 23-Jewel versions in detail but of course the same marking variations appear on 21-Jewel movements as well. Since we, as modern-day collectors obsess over such things even more than Meggers did, Steve and I felt the sub-variants previously known only as "Type III" that we had additionally identified were important and deserving of a proper explanation and recognition.

Previous to our October 2008 postings in the topic titled "BUNN SPECIAL 23 JEWEL MOTOR BARREL 60 TYPE I, II AND III WITH "A" & "B" VARIANTS" these sub-variants were unrecognized, read it and follow the links.

Steve and I chose to assign to them the then-new "Type III A" and "Type III B" designations for identification purposes. We suggested that a "Type III" marked with "Illinois Watch Co." signature thereafter be designated as a "Type III A" and those with "Illinois Watch" signature become known as the "Type III B" variant as represented by 5321056 immediately below this posting. At that point we surmised that of the 11,000 or so "Type III" produced in 23-Jewel there may have been some 9,000 of the "Type III A" variant and about 2,000 of the "Type III B" variant.

We did not explore the 21-Jewel production numbers as stated above, in the previous postings in October 2008 we focused on "Type III" 23-Jewel movements but this "Type III A" and "Type III B" designation should correctly properly apply to 21-Jewel "Type III" movements that Jon and Tom asked about at the beginning of this topic as well.

Hopefully this helps further define and add to our mutual enjoyment of these great watches.

After all... "We learn something new every day" ...in this hobby.

Lindell

We estimate about 2,000 of the 23-Jewel "Type III B" were produced...

December 04, 2012, 19:21

Tom Weinstock

Lin, Ed and Jared...thank you. I think it would be interesting to try and figure out how many of the 21J type III A and B's are out there. The reason I am so interested is because the 21j versions, 161's included, is where my focus is right now. The 23J versions may get some attention later, but the 21J variations are a bit more affordable for me.

December 04, 2012, 19:24

Jared Brinker

Tom-

I would agree. I've owned a few bunns over the past few years including a 161A and would like to own a 163 at some point, but the price would have to be extremely in my favor currently and I don't feel I am up to date on them enough to know what would be a good buy on a 163 or 163A currently either.

Jared

December 04, 2012, 19:48

Jon Hart

Thanks Lindell...

I was "guessing" the same rules apply to the 21j 60hr Bunn...

December 04, 2012, 20:15

Donald Trumble

Every collector and particularly every Illinois collector should read Lindell's post about how the variants came to be named. Not only does he know what he is talking about it but most importantly he has a talent for explaining complex issues in a way that everyone can understand.

After all... "We learn something new every day" ...in this hobby. Amen!

Don