How rare is this case,& what does the WRC stand for? I have had this for a long time and just dug it out. It has a 60 hour 23j Sangamo Special in it. On the inside of the back lid it looks like fancy engraving and I could not take a good picture of it. Where you see the Sangamo Special model.
Bob Christie

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Hi Bob, it appears that you have the exact case that is shown in the Illinois book on page 48 and that case was described as solid green gold . The unique bow is the same style that was used on some of the very expensive Illini 12 size shown on page 210, although I am sure this bow is correct 16 size and I assume green as well, so I feel it was possibly / probably (?) original to the case . Looks to need tightening as it did in the pic in the book. You do have a different dial and possibly movement than is shown in the book. Maybe you would enlighten us on what movement is hiding behind the dial which appears to be correct for a Model 10 Sangamo Special.

I had not realized that the case frame was fancy engraved from the pic in the book until I saw your pic and compared with magnification and see the pic in the book shows a slight hint of this nice and positive feature. How rare is it? ...well the book says 2 such cases known in 1985......I have never seen one except the one in the book and it appears you are now the owner of that one, would be hard to believe both are engraved the same way, ha! Anyway it appears it is very rare indeed and no doubt desirable. Would be of interest to me as well to know what company was the manufacturer of this case as well as to hold it in hand just for show and tell and fun no doubt. Hopefully others will have some input for us .

Thanks so much for sharing this with us from your collection.

Based on the style of interior finish, markings and serial number this case was made by the same company that made many of the cases for the factory-cased Illini (as Mike suggested). With the Illini the case number was often recorded with the movement number on the card in the original box. To date I have not been able to establish who had this casing contract for Illinois. I have not identified these cases on any other make.

Based on the shape of the crown and the fit of the bow I suspect that the bow is a replacement. Too bad the original dial has been separated from this obvious presentation model.

Hello Mike and Jerry,
Here is what I know about this case. This is the third one I have had. All three had the same bow. All were solid gold, one had no initials, the other had initials and this one has the initials as you pointed out on page 28 of the Illnois Book. This was the best example of the three so I kept this one. I did not realize it was the same one as in the book. The bows on all three appear to be loose but I assure you, are not. I believe they are the correct bow. As for the movement it is a straight 23j Sangamo Special. Let me just go ahead and shoot you a picture of the movement. The serial #3862697
Notice the cutout for the case screws, I believe these to be original. I was hoping the WRC stood for some Railroad but I would bet it is someones initials. Tell me what you think.
Your Friend
Bob Christie

...

The movement is a model 10 sangamo special, dating to 1921 by the database... but it is not said if the case was obtained with this movement...

The book gives a dating of 1921...

If this is the same watch movement and case, then the dial has been switched from the metal dial shown in the book to the porcelain dial.....

This is where it appears a documented watch shows up, exposing the changes apparently made to it.... in this case a dial switch... (if we assume the movement is the one shown in the 1985 image...which it does not appear the movement was documented.

IMHO, it would be a historically 'better' item with the metal dial......... as it is a documented configuration of the watch.

This is part of the 'argument' of 'is switching and parting out good for horology'.... and shows how documented examples are forever lost.

and for those reading between the lines...

i have not stated WHO did the switch... and am making no accusations..... as I don't know.....

.

Bob;
I am presuming the the D.R. marked on the lower plate means Double Roller. Is this a correct guess?

Hello Mark,
You are correct. The D.R. means double roller.


Hello Terry,
Thank you for the information. The watch is just the way I found it. I did not know it was in the book as previously stated. I agree it would be historically better with the metal dial which after looking, I have one.

A quote of yours says

quote:

This is part of the 'argument' of 'is switching and parting out good for horology'.... and shows how documented examples are forever lost.

I could tell you story after story on great watches getting put back to what some call "original" or correct watches.
Anyway, Thanks for the info.
Your Friend
Bob Christie

So that means someone swapped out the dial between 1985 and whenever you obtained it....

and upon a bit more research, Meggers mentions the two examples contained movements from the run 3775001 - 3777000... ( read it on page 49 of the Illinois book )

So that means with all probability the movement was switched also.......

only way it could not be true would be if there were more than one case with that case inscription on the back......

yeah, the 181 ....

I still do not agree with the method the watch was obtained [by another buyer who caused an auction to be ended early] and stated that in the thread and do not need to elaborate on that in this thread.

and was that THE dial and THE case that were on the movement to begin with?

If not then it is a MADE UP facimile of the original watch in the ad ...

some of what this comes down to is how these component watches are presented years from now when someone is trying to sell...... or do they just become broken up again......

Here is a picture of the inside of a case from a Ilini Extra if you noitce it has the same little circle design as your case,,no hallmark to tell which company made the case..bow and neck of the case is the same as yours.

Bob that is a beautiful watch glad you shared it with us.

I notice that the case serial number of Samie's Illini is fairly close to Bob's Sangamo case so what is the movement number of the Illini Samie? The dating of the Illini movement may help us date the case Bob has as well.

A further point or note on switching of this watch movement and dial is that for all we know it may have been switched a dozen times between other dials and Model 10 movements before it was photgraphed in 1985 for the Illinois book. It had over 60 years to be changed before this 1985 photo, so without box and papers or some certain historical provanance to document anything all we can say for certain is this was the way it looked in 1985. By no means can we say what it looked like in 1921 or '31 or '41 ,etc......well you get the idea. Of course the 1985 picture and the 2005 picture do prove a switch, however, just as boxes may turn up, one day an earlier picture of this watch from say 1950 could turn up and prove that the watch had already been switched. Of course we can never know for sure as Meggars used to say, give me a fact and I'll give you 3 more questions to answer, ha! Not trying to make an issue out of anything just stating that originality is always a calculated speculation at best without bonafide documentation and I do wish more watches had their original documentation. Sadly that was the first original thing about most watches that was destroyed many times, day one, and by the original buyer when they threw the box out with the weekly trash. Our research would be a lot easier today had that documentation survived with the watch. Of course in the case of 99.9% of these time pieces we might as well be wishing the watches could talk, now boy wouldn't that curl your hair?, ha! Happy "Documented" Hunting!

Mike - I have recorded 18 of these cases on various Illini movements, ranging from 50127 to 51786. The Illini were supposedly produced up until 1921. I have also recorded one 12-size A.Lincoln in case number 52143 that dates to 1922 based on the movement serial number. That might suggest that this Sangamo case is from 1922 or later, but I am not certain how close the Illinois dating really is.

Hi,
Anyone else here think that those letters could also be WRG and not WRC? Just a thought.

Sheila,

Yes possibly IMHO, but what those 3 letters represent is immaterial to the main point of the thread. Whether its a C or a G, they are still a man's initials.

Mike the Illini dates to 1920 i think.

Thanks so much, Jerry! I appreciate that and looks like Bob's case does in fact date to the early 1920's for sure as Meggars concluded. I always liked his detective work. When asked once how he broke some of the runs down in the Illinois book, he replied, "...I guessed, ha!....". Such a nice and humble , gentle man who was always a pleasure to talk with. I appreciate your post and recording of numbers as they will be very helpful down the road I am sure.

Also, thanks to Samie, for posting that nice Illini movement and confirming that everything looks to jive on originality with it timewise between case and dial. Trends do appear in these numbers when we record them. That is what Terry Hall is doing with Hamilton and I have been doing with the Illinois RR's with Factory Wadsworth cases for some time now. It's going to be nice when these numbers are made available to all. It is really the only way that we can get a handle on what is probably original without box and papers. So keep recording those numbers! Happy Hunting and thanks to all!

Bob wrote:
How rare is this case,& what does the WRC stand for?

Can you tell me WHY the letters are immaterial when Bob DID ASK about them? I realize that they are only innitials, and that was already spoken of, however since I don't have the information about the watch that you do, and could only enjoy learning from everyone about it, I thought I would just mention the one other thing I noticed about the watch and wanted to share with Bob and others.

innocent observation

It turns out that Bob's case was documented earlier than Meggers' Illinois book. On page 58 of Ehrhardt's "1979 Price Indicator" the watch is shown in several views, including the movement - #3,775,639. Roy's caption implies that it is all original, including the dial. At that time Roy credited the watch to Bob Coonfield. I don't know if he is still around, but if so he might shed some light on the origins and originality of this watch.

Mike - regarding the case maker: in the same Ehrhardt book, on page 56, he shows another Sangamo Special case made by Wadsworth that has a nearly identical pendant. A couple of scenarios are possible. 1) Wadsworth made these unattributed solid gold cases in their own serial number series. 2) Illinois requested that the pendant be matched by whoever made the case for them. Based on your Wadsworth research, what do you think?

Jerry, I have had my suspicions all along that they are indeed Wadsworth cases, however, Wadsworth was proud of their name and almost always marked their cases. I can only assume , Illinois may have requested a no name case and that may be the reason they are not marked. It is strange to me that they are not marked if they are in fact Wadsworth cases. I do know that in the mid , late 20's Wadsworth made solid gold cases for Hamilton such as the solid gold #2 bar over crown 16 size cases and they carried their own serial number range which was in the 0100,000-0200,000, this serial number range also included 12 size solid gold cases for Hamilton's 916, 918's, 922's, and other models etc.

Keep me posted with some pics whenever you see an Illini pop up with one of these gold cases. Learning all the time and I appreciate the opportunity to converse with you on these. So much rare stuff out there that has been salted away all these years that we have yet to see. Thanks so much, Jerry!

If you like Illini, I have several on my web site. I also featured them in my talk at the Ward Francillon Time Symposium last month.

Here are a couple with the case in question
51076
51069

I presume we all know that these watches represent Charles DeLong's most abundant invention.

Are there any books that deal with the history and manufacture of watch cases, other than the Niebling book?

Has anyone researched the case numbersof various watch/case combinations not factory-cased?

Or the relationships between serial numbers when factory-cased?

Jessica

I noticed that the bow and crown above looks a lot like the one on page 176 of the 2005 Watch Guide.
The Company is the Dudely Watch Co and it says the Cases were made by Wadsworth, Keystone & Star Watch case Co.
Looks similar but not "right on"

Tom, Samie, Great pictures, thanks.

Jessica - there are a few people conducting watch case research. Mike and Terry have been collecting case data for many years on some of the major casemakers, including Wadsworth. I have been interested in some of the smaller casemakers such as Dubois/Depollier, Jeannot & Shiebler, LeBolt, Blank and Matalene. I suspect these unmarked Illinois factory cases may be from LeBolt or Wadsworth but am still collecting data.