? Info - non use of SN on Known watches

March 09, 2008, 12:27

Sheila Gilbert

I have noticed several Elgins without Serial Numbers lately, and wondered if others have seen them too, AND if this is usual?

I have one from some time ago and will post what I have. Seems that one version is of lower quality, and the higher quality one is the one without a serial number!? weird.

Any thouhgts?

March 09, 2008, 14:39

David Abbe

Please show some pictures or refer to the listing if they are on eBay. This could be a most interesting thread.

March 09, 2008, 16:52

Sheila Gilbert

Sorry for the delay, funny how it's quiet until you try to get on the board huh?

One is a junk watch I got with 2 other items, it's the one with the serial number, and the other is a small Elgin that looks the same but you can tell by the gold jewels on it, that it may be a better grade watch, but I'm not sure. Says Double Roller under the top plate.

I know Elgins, but things like this confuse me, and I don't really have any experience with Elgins without serial numbers.
Let me know what you think.

March 09, 2008, 16:53

Sheila Gilbert

This is the unmarked Elgin

There are a few screw differences too.

March 09, 2008, 17:13

Lindell V. Riddle

Sheila,

Interestingly the exposed numbers do not always appear in the same place.

Therefore it is possible to assemble a group of parts from different watches and end up with what you appear to have in that second image. Although I'm not usually a betting man the odds are good you will find more than one number upon examining those components! Easiest places to check are under the dial and balance bridge. There are a few legitimately unnumbered movements but that is probably not one of them.

Look very closely at the three different styles of damaskeening.

Any other suggestions?

Lindell

March 09, 2008, 18:13

Sheila Gilbert

Hi Lindell,

Your so right. I only spot checked this one, and thought they were all the same.

But, I have noticed 3 different Elgins on ebay in the past month, and I'm very sure that the movements were intact and matched, but no serial number on any of them.

I may have a copy of one of them, but I just deleted them from my ebay saves. Poooo

I will check and see.
Can you tell me if this happens much?
Most have been on lower grade watches, is this part common?

Thank you for showing me the damaskeening, I thought I checked that part, guess I missed it.

March 09, 2008, 18:52

Lindell V. Riddle

Sheila,

On a few watches the damaskeening does not match, but without a number in evidence check closely for signs of tampering which usually leads to it being a "put-together" or "parts watch" to most of collectors.

Unfortunately, there are people do this kind of thing today with their left-overs. Often lower-grades are used for parts, a "survival-of-the-fittest" that will continue to happen. We also have to realize that until recently these were just watches, in generations-past they were often repaired as simply as possible in order to keep them operational, that can account for some of what you are finding. Let's be clear that in regular factory production of American Pocket Watches that most of us collect, such as the Elgin examples you provided, individual components were usually numbered. This would change in later years with the advent of the fully-interchangeable parts, but that's another story entirely.

Whenever you are considering buying something that does not "add-up" consider starting an "Avoid the Pitfalls of On-Line Trading" topic about it. Then we can discuss it in an exclusive Members Only area where the facts usually come to light.

"If in doubt, check it out" ...is good advice.

Lindell

March 10, 2008, 01:56

Sheila Gilbert

I must add that I always check the damaskeening first, and just missed it this time. I learned from you guys long ago about that problem.

The one I'm thinking of is the one I just deleted. It was a perfectly matched, and a fully flowered, movement.
I thought that someone had just played with it, but it looked original too. The entire movement was all very small flowers, the ENTIRE movement, and not one part was missing the flowers. (and a few vines)

I have seen watches that have been "worked on" before, but you could see that no numbers or letters were ever on it. The only thing I can say for sure is that it had the design of the Elgin Grade 109, which is the design and grade of my Pansy's. That's why I noticed it.

You think someone just put this together and did the engraving? That's what I thought. It was done perfectly, that's for sure.

I planned on sharing it, and must have deleted it.
Lots of cut out movements out there lately too.

I'm sure glad you reminded me to check the damaskeening, it makes all the difference.

Getting Old s*cks! hehehe