Internet Horology Club 185
Interesting 992B

This topic can be found at:
https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1086047761/m/2201049722

January 16, 2007, 22:11
David Johnson
Interesting 992B
Here is a 992B I recently came across that has stirred my interest and I wanted to post it for your comments and observations.

No tricks here, I just want to know what you think.


January 16, 2007, 22:13
David Johnson
The case back is engraved "In Memory Of The Employees On The L.S.&I.R.R." I believe this would be the Lake Superior & Ishpeming Railroad.


January 16, 2007, 22:19
David Johnson
Wadsworth case #H416967. Movement #C65284.

I don't want to post any of my own thoughts yet. Just seeking yours. Smile So what do you think?


January 16, 2007, 22:24
Michael Dias
Very nice watch, interesting hands.
January 16, 2007, 23:06
Don Herrington
Hello David,
I believe the cross bar and diamond hands have shown up enough in the early 992b runs to be a legitimate original... if not an original request.

The I.R.R could be for Interlocking Rail Road ... as far as the LS...? Very good looking watch Cool
January 17, 2007, 06:53
Robert M. Sweet
David,
Thanks. The case and movement looks great. Although different than what we nornally see on a 992B, I think the hands also looks very nice.

Thanks for sharing.

Robert
January 17, 2007, 09:15
Mark Cross
As nice an example as this is, I'm more interested in the engraving. "In Memory of..."?

What an odd thing to have engraved on your railroad watch! I sure would love to know the rest of THAT story.....

Regards! Mark
January 17, 2007, 13:23
Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
L.S. & I.R.R. is probably the Lake Superior & Ishpeming Railroad.

One other thing I noticed about this watch was that it's got the second signature movement markings, which is the least common of the four signatures.

FWIW I have a second signature 992B in my collection with the same diamond-crossbar hands and I've seen diamond-crossbar hands on a lot of other WW2-era 992B's as well, so I'm inclined to think they could very well be original.


Best Regards,

Ed
January 17, 2007, 13:42
Lindell V. Riddle

Very interesting watch,

The movement number C65284 does indeed date to 1943-44 which is the time during WWII when there were shortages of just about everything. We have seen numerous others from this same time frame with the hands shown on David's example and there is every reason to believe they are correct.

Case number H416967 would fall in with documented 1940-41 examples, but again they may have reached "the bottom of the bin" and this number came up. David's hands, dial and movement line up as expected but some may question what might be perceived as an earlier case.

Wink

January 17, 2007, 15:33
Mark Reynolds
Just for reference, I have C65718 in my collection. It is also in a Model 2 case which has serial #H620552. In contrast, the dial on my watch is the same as that on most, if not all, 2974B watches (the so-called #082 "Export" dial), including the baton hour, minute, and second hands.

What I'm seeing, in line with the comments from Lindell, Ed, and others, is a mix of components during the 1943-1944 time frame, which would be consistent with the theory of Hamilton using what it had on hand due to wartime shortages.

Best regards,

Mark
January 17, 2007, 19:07
Clyde Roper
This is a very interesting watch to me because of the apparent use of leftover and "make do" parts during the war emergency. Very educational.

Like Mark, I'd love to know more about the inscription, too.

I found this factoid on a website for the LS & IRR Railroad-- the name was changed in 1949:

"The name was changed from Lake Superior and Ishpeming Railroad Company to Lake Superior & Ishpeming Railroad Company. Also this year, the LS&I acquired one-half interest in the C&NW"

Here's the website: http://www.i2k.com/~dpierce/LSI/

So far no luck on finding a tragedy or anything about the line that might relate to the inscription.
January 17, 2007, 21:01
Robert M. Sweet
The diamond cross-bar hands were evidently used by Hamilton sometime prior to 1932 as they are listed in "Swartchild's Catalog" with a Hamilton part number (589).

Robert


January 17, 2007, 23:48
David Johnson
Everyone. Thank you for your comments. I am actually considering this watch as a wholesale purchase to re-sell. The watch is stored in a ivory cig box as well as a cardboard outer box. There is a normal label on the outer box but no numbers and on close examination, the numbers actually appear to have been removed so I am obviously not about to assume the boxes to be original, albeit, they are certainly correct. My suspicion would be that the current owner thought the watch worthy of storing in a box and found this combination along the way to keep it in.

Condition wise, this is a very clean, crisp example showing very light signs of wear. The engraving is bold and sharp.

When I first saw the watch, the hands struck me as odd. Like most of you however, I have seen this dial/hands combination before but wasn't certain that they would be considered acceptable in this combination. Hence, my desire to post it for your consideration.

Secondly, like Mark stated above, that is an unusual engraving statement on the back. The fact that it was posted in "memory" of the employees certainly entertains the posibility of some sort of tradgedy. Unfortunately, I have been very hard pressed to find anything in my research that lends itself along these lines.

I don't have any interest in collecting this piece personally. I am considering its purchase along with several other pieces, as a grouping, and will probably re-sell it. If any 185er's have an interest, I will be glad to give them first shot at it. Feel free to contact me.

Thanks again for your comments and any additional thoughts are certainly welcome.
January 18, 2007, 06:47
Robert M. Sweet
David,
Would you care to post a close-up image of the outer box label?

Thanks,
Robert
January 18, 2007, 09:10
David Johnson
Hi Robert,

I'll be glad to. I am at work right now and won't be able to do it until this evening once I get home. Will post a shot ASAP then.
January 18, 2007, 13:13
John Johnston
My father has worked for the railroads for over 43 yrs now and he often refers to the good old days, saying everyone was considered a family. Fathers got their sons, and grandsons jobs with the rail company in question because they were familiar with the schedule of a railroadman.

My thoughts on the inscription is that maybe the Railroad company in question bought a small run of watches from Hamilton to present to the wifes and children of the employees of the LS & IRR that lost their lives in action during WWII. I know this was a common pratice for companies after the war. It would make ones children much more willing to begin a career with dad's former employer.
January 18, 2007, 14:32
Mark Cross
I like that idea, but considering the timing that this watch was supposedly made during the war and the shortages we KNOW took place, was Hamilton accepting these kind of orders for non-war related watches? They were having a hard enough time meeting the requirements of the war effort, let alone having the time and materials to make memorial watches for a railroad. With this watch being made in 43-44, we were getting hammered during that time period, so there wasn't much room for this kind of work, I would think.

To me, that scenario would make more since if it was made in, say, 1946 or 47, AFTER the war was over.

Just thinking out loud.

Regards! Mark
January 18, 2007, 21:23
David Johnson
Here is a picture of the outer box with label that the watch came in when I received it.


January 18, 2007, 21:44
Tony Dukes
David,
What are you asking for this 992B?
Tony
January 18, 2007, 22:16
Robert M. Sweet
David,
This is a box for a No. 16, R.G.P. (rolled gold plate).

Thanks for sharing.

Robert
January 18, 2007, 22:20
Edward L. Parsons, Jr.
The typed information does appear to have been erased, but the R.G.P. (rolled gold plate) marking printed on the label tells me this outer box doesn't match the Case #2 this watch is in, since that is 10K gold-filled.

This label/outer box would have to go with a 992B in a Case #16, which was rolled gold plate and came out in 1951.

Oops, I guess Robert and I were typing at the same time! Roll Eyes


Best Regards,

Ed
January 18, 2007, 23:13
David Johnson
I had noticed the RGP markings on the dial which increased my suspicion that it wasn't original. Nice to know what case should be with this box.

Tony, the watch alone is $700.00. As a package, with the inner/outer boxes, I need to get $1,100.00. Currently, it is on hold.