Hamilton 936 with 19 jewels

July 25, 2009, 18:58

Tony Dukes

Today at the WWT show in Atlanta I held my first Hamilton 936 with 19 jewels. In the price guide it is listed as a 4-star watch. What info can you share with me regarding this watch.
Tony

July 25, 2009, 20:33

Edward L. Parsons, Jr.

Hi Tony. Well, for one thing the 936 is normally thought of as a 17-jewel watch. I have a half dozen of 'em in my collection. 19-jewels is a rare one indeed.

July 25, 2009, 20:41

Jerry King

Well, I certainly am no authority but the price guide does show a 19 jewel grade 936 Hamilton and lists it as a four star as Tony indicated....

There are 17 jewel #936's as well, in fact one is a three star if the s/n is between 1 & 20 as a first run watch....

Probably a pretty nice feeling holding that 19 jewel four star watch, Tony....I can imagine the price tag was pretty heavy also, if it was even for sale....

Regards,
Jerry

July 25, 2009, 22:23

Bill Kapp

Tony,

Interesting! What is the serial number? I would have thought that increasing the jewel count would have changed the grade! You don't see any 23J 992's, they are 950's!

Anyone know the story here?

Found a "list" that describes the 944 as a 19J movement, 6600 produced between 1905-1918 including 100 movements changed from grade 936.

Is that what we are refering to here?

happy hunting,

July 26, 2009, 13:40

Lindell V. Riddle

Perhaps Tony could post the movement number which would go a long way toward clearing this up.

It is interesting that remarking and at times re-grading following remarking of movements were common practices among watch companies. We often put too much faith in these markings as we occasionally put too much faith in their record keeping. Some of the things they did seem odd to us a hundred years later.

Differences between 944 and 936 include damaskeening, gold versus black markings and two barrel jewels.

One more point, my research materials such as Page 11 of the Ehrhardt Hamilton Production Book (HAM-1 from 1981) which lists Hamilton 18-size production along with the John F. Gelson Listings appear to confirm the final 944 should be from a run consisting of 551001-553000 during 1908 not 1918 production.

The reference Bill made to 1918 is likely a typographical error, I do that almost daily.

Below 944 number 552985 from 1908 production...

July 27, 2009, 00:16

Bill Kapp

Lindell,

Very possibly a typo, not clear if the watch in question is marked 936 or not and/or if it is factory upjeweled as a 944.

Fun to see these and try to figure them out!

happy hunting,

July 27, 2009, 08:38

Tony Dukes

Bill and Lindell,
I am going to try to contact the owner of the watch today to get the serial number and movement markings.
Tony

July 27, 2009, 13:49

Tony Dukes

Talked briefly with the owner of the watch. The serial number is 280207. It now appears that this watch is one of the Grade 936 watches that were converted to 19 jewel and sold as Grade 944 movements. The watch is not marked 936 or 944 and has a single roller.
Here is a picture of one of these upgraded watches from page 24 of the Ehrhardt 1980 Price Indicator.
Tony

July 28, 2009, 09:43

Tony Dukes

In my 944 folder I found the following info:
For many grades, the first ten of each run were left grey, that is they were not damaskeened or engraved. This was so they could be set aside for private labeling. If these were not needed for private labels, they may be finished normally later.
Also on page 76A of the watch book-Hamilton-Hand-Written Serial Numbers by Townsend-published by Roy Ehrhardt the first ten serial numbers of each 100 run between 280,000 to 281,000 were converted to 944 and all sold to the J. W. Forsinger Company of Chicago.

July 29, 2009, 14:20

Lindell V. Riddle

As was discussed above... "remarking and at times re-grading following remarking of movements were common practices among watch companies. We often put too much faith in these markings as we occasionally put too much faith in their record keeping. Some of the things they did seem odd to us a hundred years later."

We all know the manufacturers produced what are commonly referred to as "Private Label" watches, the most readily recognized of which are those with a jeweler's name on the movement and dial. However another usage of the "Private Label" methodology was a situation such as we find with these remarked Hamilton movements.

Here are the ones we are aware of as Hamilton Grade 936 being "up-jeweled" to 19-Jewels.

280,001-280,010
280,101-280,110
280,201-280,210
280,301-280,310
280,401-280,410
280,501-280,510
280,601-280,610
280,701-280,710
280,801-280,810
280,901-280,910

The J. W. Forsinger Company of Chicago was a wholesaler, distributor, time inspector and retail jeweler. They are best known for "Adjusted for Railroad Service" watches which were made by Hamilton to their specifications. We will probably never be certain how many watches we find today are like these 19-Jewel examples, blocked for production as one style movement and finished as something else but this was done far more often than is commonly known.

Another example that comes to mind are the South-Bend Grade 337 which show up as part of the Grade 345 runs. These which are under discussion in our South-Bend Watch Company Research Forum have long puzzled collectors.

Tony mentioned about "the first ten" of each 100 movements being held back, and we often hear of or find ten of this or ten of that being different, we find ten of something made, we find ten being a "test run" prior to full production. This would be a good time to explain why so often "10" becomes an almost magical number. The answer is actually quite simple. As shown in the image below movements were kept in wooden trays. Each of these had ten wells to hold ten movements and this is how they went along the line as well as how they were stored at the end of each day.

This explains why ten movements could easily be set aside, why they could even lose track of ten movements that were then later finished out of sequence or finished in a different way than others in a particular grade or production run. Consider all these facts very carefully in your buying decision the next time something "rare" becomes available.

Typical watch company trays measure five and five eights by twelve inches by one and one quarter deep. The glass insert in the top is four by ten inches, they were smoothly finished with dove-tailed joints and two hinges on the back.

Factory watch storage trays usually held ten movements...

July 31, 2009, 23:58

Robert Loe

Can you find the trays anyplace?

RBL

August 09, 2009, 13:55

Lindell V. Riddle

These show up occasionally, though the majority of such things were destroyed when factories closed. The one shown above was from the Hamilton factory in Lancaster but as I said it is typical of those used by other watch companies. Those circular cutouts are to hold individual movements in place, anyone skilled in wood-working could probably replicate something like these boxes today.