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Scarce 23j 16 size Hampdens "Click" to Login or Register 
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
The table shows the estimated blocked serial numbers for 16 size 23 jewel Hampdens that I hope Mr. Shugart will use to provide star estimates (scarity)for these watches.there is a Word document at the bottom that is easier to read.

I will provide estimates for the scarce 21 jewel 16 size watches later this week.

Please note that actual production is often less than the blocked serial numbers and known examples are probably 10% to 20% of actual production.

Although most collectors still avoid Hampdens these were very high grade watches and can be obtained for a fraction of what a Hamilton or Illinois goes for.

16 SIZE 23 JEWEL HAMPDENS

Grade- Type- Model- Adjustments-blocked serial
Numbers

94 HC 5 5pos n=100

103 HC 2 Adj n=285

104--RRG
HC 4 5pos n=800
HC 4 tutone5pos n=200
OF 4 5pos n=600
OF 5 5pos n=4,300

104--SR
OF 1 tutone Adj n=200
HC 2 tutone Adj n=800
OF 2 tutone Adj n=200
HC 4 5pos n=95
HC 4 tutone 5pos n=400—
7 known
OF 4 5pos n=800
OF 4 tutone 5pos n=1,200

105
OF 1 Adj n=400
HC 2 Adj n=600
OF 2 Adj n=750

Special Railway
OF 5 5pos n=1,110

Bob

Word Doc16_SIZE_Hampens_23_j.doc (37 Kb, 338 downloads)
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
IHC Life Member
Picture of Cooksey Shugart
posted
Robert, Nice job as usual.
Cooksey
 
Posts: 63 | Location: Cleveland, Tennessee USA | Registered: November 27, 2002
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
Cooksey

I hope that with the addition of stars in your Price Guide for 16 size Hampdens that it will start to wake up collectors to an area of RR watches that has been overlooked. I was surprised by how scarce many of the 16 size 23j Hampdens are.

My source is the Hampden Watch Co Book and my own research.

Doing the 21 jewel watches is more time consuming as I am having some difficulty finding production runs for some of the watches. Either they are very scarce or never produced. Hopefully once I put up the list some others can help also.

Bob

PS CAN THE MODERATOR ALSO PUT THIS THREAD IN THE PRICE GUIDE SECTION ALSO
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
Site Administrator
IHC Life Member
Picture of Phillip Sanchez
posted
Bob, I have added this thread to the "help update guide" forum.
 
Posts: 5159 | Location: North Georgia Mountains in the U.S.A. | Registered: March 31, 2006
posted
Robert,

Can you give me a brief description as to how you used the Hampden Watch Book to conclude how many blocked serial numbers where set aside for each movement?

What is the margin for error in something like this?

I for one really appreciate all of your hard work and endless hours of research on the Hampden Watch Co. I find this kind of research very interesting. So what I'm really looking for is some suggestion and tips in case I deside to take on a similiar project myself in the future. I would like a break down of the A+B=C

Thanks,


John
 
Posts: 311 | Registered: October 18, 2005
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
John
The first question that needs to be answered is how I planned to use the data. My purpose is to get a feel of which grades were probably produced in fewer numbers. I am less concerned if 100 or 500 were produced .Rather I wanted to know on a relative basis which grades probably had lower production.The blocked serial numbers are a good surogate.

My intent is not to claim the numbers in my tables are actual production numbers nor to indicate how many may have survived.

In many instances I think the number actually produced is lower than the blocked serial number especially for some of the higher grade (more expensive) watches which became hard to sell.For example Elgin blocked 6,000 serial numbers for the CH Hulbard presentation watch. My best guess is that only a few hundred were produced.

HOW I CALCULATED BLOCKED SERIAL NUMBERS

Using the Hampden Watch Co book I located each production run shown in the Hampden Watch Co.Book and tried to estimate how many blocked serial numbers exist. This is more guestimation than science.

For 12 size watches I also checked the serial numbers in my collection.In some instances I had a 12 size watch from an unreported run OR one that extended a run. The additional information was used to shape my estimates.

I hope I have answered your question.

Bob
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
posted
Robert,

Thank you for the additional information. I realize these kind of things are never an exact science, but I believe your hard work does provide an excellent foundation towards a accurate hypothosis on how many or few watches were product by Hampden.

John
 
Posts: 311 | Registered: October 18, 2005
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
John
The reason I tend to focus on relative scarcity rather than actual numbers is that determining actual numbers is very difficult especially for a company such as Hampden.

1) Hampden is less popular. Thus knowledge is less likely to have been shared.

2) No factory records are available.

3) 16 size watches are over represented in the Hampden Watch Co book because that is the most popular size.

3) Rarer grades are over represented ie you might see 3 or 4 serial numbers for a rare grade with 400 blocked numbers and only 3 or 4 serial numbers for a low grade watch with several thousand blocked numbers.

4) For some grades not all of the blocked numbers were used.

For example ,the 16 size grade 104 SR Hunter appears to have 400 blocked serial numbers yet their are only 7 known examples--I own two of them.

Because Hampdens popularity was declining ,hunters were becoming less popular and the 104 was relatively expensive it is hypothesized that 100 or less were actually sold.

For all of the above reasons we will never truly have precise numbers. On the other hand I do think we are starting to finally get a more accurate understanding about which Hampdens are scarce--and its not the Chronometer grade adjusted to 3 positions which seems to go for high prices .

Many of the high grade Hampdens are of higher quality than many collectors give them credit for.

Bob
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator
Picture of John J. Flahive III
posted
Bob,

I totally agree with you. I picked up this watch at the Cleveland National last year for $500. The same quality 23J watch in Hamilton or Illinois would be many times that. This is one of the Grade 104 SR in flag varieties, S# 1899606 for your database.

John III

 
Posts: 1750 | Location: Wisconsin in the USA | Registered: October 17, 2005
posted
Hi Robert

What model(s) would you suggest to look out for as a first Hampden for a collection?

Gordon
 
Posts: 184 | Location: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: February 02, 2007
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
Gordon
My real love is 12 size Hampdens . Among 12 size I would go for the Model 6 watches ( Paul Revere,Minute Man ) 21j Ohioan,21j grades 312 and 314 and the Model 3 and 4 John Hancocks.

Among 16 and 18 size railroad watches I think most of the 23j and 21j would be a welcome addition to any ones collection.

Bob
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
posted
Hi Bob

Thanks for the info. Like you I am also a 12s collector, especially Elgin and Illinois.

Gordon
 
Posts: 184 | Location: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: February 02, 2007
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
My latest acquistion.

This is a 16 size Hampden #1091905,23j Adjusted, Grade 104 SR Tu tone ,Model 2--raised plate.Only one run of 200 is known.The pattern on the plates was previously unknown To date 8 are known.

Think what this watch would go for if it was a Hamilton or Illinois--I paid $677 for this Hampden.

Bob

23j Model 2 tu tone Model 2
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

CONGRATULATIONS BOB!

Raised plate 23-Jewel Special Railway Eek is rare and desirable.

If it were a comparable Hamilton or Illinois take that number by anywhere from three to seven.

What do others say?

Wink
 
Posts: 10516 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
Below is another rare Hampden addition to my collection for under $400.

This is a very high quality watch that is under appreciated. When will the RR crowd
start to give these watches the respect they deserve?

The watch is a 16 size ,lever set, 23j ,grade 104 SR, Model 2, Hunter, Tu Tone.Less than 800 blocked serial numbers were reserved for this Grade.

I found out from Bob Arnold that the OF 23j Hampden with a raised plate that I posted on the 23rd in this section has a tutone pattern that he has not seen before on this watch.
Bob

23jHampden 2nd Model Grade 104 SR Tuotone
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
Picture of David A. Vasarab
posted
An excellent foray into Hampden production. Many
people do not appreciate these watches. But, you've shown a good reason to.
Thanks for a fine job of research.
 
Posts: 79 | Location: Parma, Northern Ohio USA | Registered: January 02, 2006
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
Here is another rare 23 jewel Hampden hunter that
cost less than a Bunn Special.

Specifically this is a 16 size 23j Grade 104 Hunter #2075468 4th Model Lever Set adjusted to 5 positions.

Less than 800 serial numbers were reserved for this Grade. I paid $460 for this watch.

The difference between this watch and the other
104 Hunter I posted below is that this watch is NOT tu tone nor does it have a flag with SR (Special Railway) in it--a very interesting variant.

Bob

16 23j Gr 104 Hunter Model 4
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
Here is the other Grade 104 SR Hunter #1,795,088 I acquired. It is Tu tone with SR(Special Railway) in the flag. Estimated number of reserved serial numbers is around 400.

16 size 23j gr 104 hunter tutone SR in Flag
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
 
Posts: 6532 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
David
The watch you showed above from Ebay is in the same run of Grade 104 SR raised plate I showed in an earlier post--estimated reserved serial numbers 200.There are some even scarcer such as the Grade 94 and a Gr 104 SR HC 5pos (non tutone)

Below is another rare Hampden. A 23j Grade 105 NR OF Model 1 # 1,092,032 raised plate Hampden with somewhere between 200 and 400 blocked serial numbers.

I paid $437 for it. You can barely get a have way decent Bunn Special with production of 70K for the price I paid.

Hampden Gr 105 NR ONL Model 1
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
Dial of Grade 105 NR (New Railway) ONL Model 1

dial Hampden Gr 105 NR ONL Model 1
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
Another scarce Hampden--Gr105 NR HN2L adj # 1,043,286
Estimated number of blocked serial numbers 600.

I paid $550 for this Gr105 NR HN2L

 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
Movement and case...The micro regulator is missing.
Does anyone have one they would be willing to sell?

 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
Here is another rare 16 size 23j Hampden I picked up for $687--Grade 104 RRG Model 4 OF lever set adjusted to 5 positions #2,801,011.

I think I paid a little more than usual for this watch due to the Montgomery dial.

The estimated number of blocked serial numbers is between 500 to 600.

Bob

Hampden GR 104 RRG ON4L 5P
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
Here is the dial

Gr 104 RRG m4 OF dial
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
Picture of Matthew E. Sutton
posted
What a very nice watch!!!
 
Posts: 495 | Location: Kailua, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: March 14, 2005
Picture of Tom Seymour
posted
Here is a 16s, 23j, grade 104 in a Railway Primus case. One of my favorites.


Tom


 
Posts: 2539 | Location: Mount Angel, Oregon in the U.S.A. | Registered: November 19, 2002
Picture of Tom Seymour
posted
picture 2


Tom


 
Posts: 2539 | Location: Mount Angel, Oregon in the U.S.A. | Registered: November 19, 2002
Picture of Tom Seymour
posted
The movement


Tom


 
Posts: 2539 | Location: Mount Angel, Oregon in the U.S.A. | Registered: November 19, 2002
Picture of David A. Vasarab
posted
A lot of nice Hampdens out there!!!
Let's keep accurate information coming in!!
Thanks group for sharing!
 
Posts: 79 | Location: Parma, Northern Ohio USA | Registered: January 02, 2006
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
Tom
You have a wonderful watch. Primus cases are expectionally rare.

Below is another little Hampden castoff I picked up today--
Grade 104 SR Model OF Model 4 Tutone Adjusted to 5 positions Lever set #1,795,871. About 1,000 serial numbers were reserved for this Grade.

I paid $432.

Gr104 OF Model 4 TTLever set
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
The dial

Gr104 SR M4 TTOF
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
12-Size Expert
Picture of Robert Schussel
posted
a magnificient Dueber GF case

GR 104 SR M4 OF case
 
Posts: 622 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
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