Hello.
I just received a very nice 12 size Illinois Ambassador 17 jewel, 2 tone movement pocket watch. SN # 3994613 (1922)
Could anyone help in identyfing this movement?
I have looked for a few days now and come up ith nothing.
Thanks in advance.
Keven

Here is the movement

I believe there should be a whip spring with an adjusting screw attached to the balance cock.
Closest I can see in my book is the "Maiden America" which looks similar. No doubt an Illinois collector could tell you more. I believe Illinois had more named watches than any other maker. Exactly where this one fits in I am not sure.

Keven,
Appears to be a nice looking grade 405 private label, circa 1922 or abouts. I believe the grade 405 was a medium grade watch by the Illinois Watch Company. Hope this helps.
Ray

Thank you all so far. I didn't notice the missing whipspring and screw.
Thanks again.
Keven

Keven
About 20,700 serial numbers were reserved for the Grade 405 hunter and 380,000 for the open face . It was considerd a slightly higher grade than the 404 as it was adjusted.
Because Illinois had over 1,000 different private labels it is often impossible to know who the watches were made for.

Bob

Keven, There is no doubt in my mind that somone with an artistic flair working in Marketing at Illinois W. Co., had to have something like a "Watch a month club" going. The workmanship was spectacular! The presentations and names were an orchestra with endless varieties as unlimited as the imagination of the Damaskeening Machine operator. I am dropping in a pic of my "VIM which god knows why they did not follow with a "Vigor"! But it does show what the whip regulator spring looks like on these movements.

David,
I'm with you on the various watches, grades,patterns etc of Illinois. It is by far my favorite watch to collect as it seems that they all differ to some extent and there are many to choose from.
Ray

Ray, I know we digress but only ever so slightly as I must go on with the artistic "flair", What is the difference between a Model 1 and Model 3 12 size but the cuts in the3 plates? Evidenced by a highly damaskeened (wow) no-named 21j, and a 17j "Autocrat", from my humble collection. One a false brige and the other the "3/4 Plate" look, yet I venture they could be interchanged on the main plate!

The false bridge "Autocrart, remains my favorite style as with Keven's rare looking 2-tone Ambassador. It has to be carried ONLY when the wearer is in a Tuxedo!

Very nice, and as usual I learned something new here as I never noticed the "False Bridge" on the grade 405. I too have a 17j Autocrat like yours, it is serial # 3,041,503 but sadly is a movement only.

This topic got me to looking at my 12s Illinois and I also found a grade 427 19j marked James A Garfield with # 3,932,175. And a Model 1 grade 255 marked "Laclede".
Wow, love these watches.

Great to see some size 12 Illinois.
Kevin,
A little more information, as your watch comes fron the run 3,994,001 – 3,996,000 = 2,000, grade 405 hunter it can be estimated that about 300 of these are Ambassador.
With the serial numbers I have, the breakdown of the run looks like.
3,994,444 Forum estimate of 500
3,994,561 Illinois Watch Co. estimate of 100
3,994,666 Ambassador estimate of 300
3,994,988 Sterling estimate of 100
3,995,824 Illinois Watch Co. estimate of 1,000
From the records I have Ambassador only turns up in this run in size 12 watches.

Jim Carroll

Wow, thank you all for all your info.
I have not been on the website for awhile. There is so much knowledge here.
Thanks for the pic to see the spring I need to get.
Thanks again,
Keven

Ray,
Is it possible to have the serial number of your Laclede Grade 255, the info I have Laclede turns up in only 3 runs of 1,000. There are only 4 runs of 1,000, the largest runs in this Grade.

2,974,001 – 2,975,000 = Laclede 1,000 estimate
2,978,001 – 2,979,000 = Laclede 1,000 estimate
2,981,001 – 2,982,000 = Laclede 1,000 estimate

Jim Carroll

Hello Jim,
The serial # on the Laclede is 2,978,091 which fits in with your numbers...Any idea of what the "Laclede" stands for?
Also, if you collect the 12 size Illinois serial numbers I can get the ones I have for you.
Ray

Ray,

Pierre Laclede was one of the founders of St. Louis, Missouri. There are many references to "Laclede" around here and the natural gas utility here is the Laclede Gas Co.
Since Springfield, IL is only 90 miles away that may have some bearing on the Laclede name.

Joe

Ray,
Thanks for the serial number, with the low number helps to confirm with the other numbers I have that its almost certain that the 1,000 are Laclede.
There is another run of Laclede 2,074,001 - 2,074,500 = 500 grade 219, size 12 open face 11 jewels.
Joe could well be right about the origin of the name, the 255 runs are 1916 and the 219 run is 1908.
It would be great if I could have your Illinois size 12 names and serial numbers.

Jim Carroll

Thanks Joe for the information on the origins of Laclede.
Jim, I will write the serial numbers down and get them posted tonight.
Thanks,
Ray

If people have any information I would be very curious about the Illinois "Stewart Special".

While a private label what makes them interesting is that most of the serial numbers are in the 4M but use the old style ebauche.

I have posted a few pictures in the past.

Here is a 19j hunter I just purchased with a serial number of 2881867 which is more typical what of this ebauche.

Bob

Jim
Here are the 12 size numbers I have and also some of which I have sold.
The Autocrat # 3,041,503 mod 3, grade 405
The Autocrat # 3,420,866 mod 3, grade 405
Illinois Watch Co # 4,364,406 mod 3, grade 405
Illinois Watch Co # 2,316,360 mod 1, grade 228
LaClede #2,978,091 mod 1, grade 255
Illinois Watch Co # 4,801,889 mod 3, grade 405
Illinos Watch Co # 3,571,600 mod 4, grade 404
Halmark Watch Co # 3,537,492 mod 4, grade 504
Illinois Watch Co # 4,051,111 mod 3, grade 405
James A Garfield # 3,932,175 mod 3, grade 425
Ray

Robert,
Thats a beauty. I may have a 16 size Stewart if you want the number I'll check.
Ray

Ray,
Thanks for your serial numbers, If James A Garfield has 19 Jewels it will be a grade 427.
Bob,
Re the Stewart Special I have noted 23 runs in size 12 watches and I guess there will be many more the have not been accounted for.
In grade 274 the grade that you have shown, has so many small 19 jewel runs there could be plenty of Stewart Special’s, here is the runs I have in grade 274.

1916 …2,881,501- 2,881,850 = 350 open faced. Stewart Special
1916 …2,881,851- 2,882,000 = 150 hunter Stewart Special (your serial number)
1918 …3,414,301- 3,414,400 = 100 open faced. Stewart Special
1919 …3,566,401- 3,566,500 = 100 open faced. Stewart Special
1921 …3,813,001- 3,813,300 = 300 open faced. Stewart Special
1921 …3,843,501- 3,843,700 = 200 open faced. Stewart Special
1922 …4,011,641- 4,012,400 = 760 hunter Mixed run, J.H Ehrlich 21 J. Stewart Special 19 J
1922 …4,053,001- 4,053,650 = 650 open faced. Mixed run, Elbros 21 J. Stewart Special 19 J. and
Elite 21 J.

Jim Carroll

Ray
I don't see your post although I have seen a question from you about the 15j grade 255.

The Grade 255 15j is very rare--estimates range from 50 to 100. If you have a picture would you please post it

Bob

Sorry about that Robert. I deleted it because I was mistaken in the jewel count. It's actually a 17 jewel..AND, I was wearing my glasses when I first checked it.

Ray

I need help 21j 3184848 3pos especially for J. H