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Glued on Dial Question "Click" to Login or Register 
posted
Aloha, I have a Elgin movement that someone has glued the dial on, probably because of missing one or more dial feet. Can any 185 member give me advice as to what to do with this situation? Soak in acetone or would that loosen up the pallet stones. Any guidance would be appreciated. Mahalo, Fred
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: June 12, 2016
Picture of Peter Kaszubski
posted
Been in situation like yours myself I was fortunate enough to pry off the dial with out doing any damages to it I used screwdriver under the dial and very slow and softly pry at the location of the legs and my dial just pop out hope this help you but you might want to wait for others to give you better advise .
 
Posts: 4395 | Location: Arizona in the USA | Registered: July 23, 2011
posted
Aloha Peter, thank you for your information and advice. Yes, I will wait to possibly hear from others as to their experience with a glued on dial before I attempt to remove it either mechanically or chemically. Mahalo, Fred
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: June 12, 2016
IHC Life Member
posted
Fred,

You should be able to remove the balance and pallets from the other side before you soak it in anything. I don't think any of the other parts will be harmed by soaking in solvent. All will need disassembly and cleaning anyway.
Good luck and let us know how things come out.

Steve
 
Posts: 692 | Location: Washington in the USA | Registered: May 23, 2010
Picture of Billy Kuhn
posted
Use One Dip Hairspring cleaner
 
Posts: 1012 | Location: Killen, Alabama in the USA | Registered: January 15, 2013
posted
I might have a dial , actually I have a couple low grade elgins , let me know if you need them
 
Posts: 1574 | Location: Maryland in the USA | Registered: June 04, 2015
posted
Aloha Stephen, Billy, and Kevin thank you very much for the tips on how to deal with this vexing situation. For your added information this is an Elgin Ball so it is worth solving this issue without damaging the movement (then look for a replacement ORRS dial ). Maybe the best way to do this is to let the power down, disassemble the movement and soak the dial, pillar plate with the center wheel and canon pinon still attached to the pillar plate until the glue dissolves as Stephen suggests. I think I need some professional help as well but I am going to be patient and take my time on this puppy. Mahalo nui for the suggestions. Very much appreciated and please keep 'em coming...Fred
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: June 12, 2016
posted
Aloha Steven, I just noticed I spelled your name incorrectly. Please accept my apology. Mahalo, Fred
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: June 12, 2016
posted
Well Cancel my dial offer , I have no elgin ball dials !
 
Posts: 1574 | Location: Maryland in the USA | Registered: June 04, 2015
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Fred,

If what you have is indeed an Official RR Standrd Ball-Elgin with the dial glued on, you have several issues.

Possibly whoever did that may have had a damaged dial or no dial and used a dial, perhaps from an 18-size Ball-Hamilton and since the dial feet are in different positions the scam-artist broke off the dial-feet glued a bogus dial in place!

Removing the dial is only part of your problem, the Ball-Elgins were produced for only a short period of time (circa 1904-05) and for that reason production numbers were very low... that means finding a proper dial is a difficult, some would say nearly impossible task.

If this is something you bought recently you might choose to invoke your "right of return" and bounce it right back to the unscrupulous seller who took advantage of you!

For more about Ball-Elgins...

CLICK... Ball-Elgin (all were 18size) Images...

You have a very sad situation, hope you can get a full refund.

(By the way, please make it a habit to always post the movement number when asking for advice, that way we can clearly understand exactly what we are discussing and advise you more accurately.)

Lindell

Wink
 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
posted
Aloha Lindell, Thank you very much for your interesting reply and thank you for the important link. Very much appreciated. The serial number of this Elgin Ball is 12279108 (my apology for not including the serial number in the first instance). I do not have a replacement dial so I am going to have to search for one to restore this movement. Maybe an ORRS EB dial will turn up on Ebay. Unfortunately, I did NOT buy this EB on Ebay. I bought it directly from a member of the ***** who assured me that if I was not satisfied I could return the watch but reversed himself and would not allow me to return the watch for a refund when I advised him I was not satisfied. I consider the incident tuition at this juncture. Again, thank you very much for your post. It will be interesting to see if anyone else has any ideas for the removal of the glued on dial. Mahalo nui, Fred
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: June 12, 2016
IHC Member 1291
Picture of Buster Beck
posted
Interesting.... What was the reason given for the seller reversing his satisfaction guarantee ?

A man is only as good as his word sure comes to mind here.

A glued on dial with a satisfaction guarantee if your not happy, says to me a super shady character that does these things often.

regards,
bb
 
Posts: 6376 | Location: Texas in the USA | Registered: July 27, 2009
posted
Aloha Buster, He allowed me a small cash refund and said that "he felt the amount was adequate" but would not accept the return of the watch. I even told him that I accepted the deal at his word but it made no impression. Like I said, this was tuition. I have no clue as to his history. Thanks for your concern. Mahalo, Fred
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: June 12, 2016
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

I find myself in 100% agreement with what Buster posted above...

QUOTE:
"A man is only as good as his word sure comes to mind here."

And I would ask everyone reading this to scroll up to my earlier post as well. An honest seller who bought the watch like that and was unaware of its true condition would have made an immediate refund along with a profound apology.

I see this is getting deeper and deeper as it becomes crystal-clear the unscrupulous seller knew exactly what he was doing to an unsuspecting buyer. Highly fraudulent behavior from a snake in the grass.

Fred, for the moment I suggest you not soak or pry, just leave the dial as you found it and do not alter the watch in any way. Believe me, you are not alone, this is far from over!

Sick to my stomach,

Lindell

Frown
 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
posted
Aloha Lindell, thank you for your post and your sincere and precious concern. I appreciate it very, very much. Please allow me the privilege of updating this "glued on dial" matter. I had already sent this vexing watch to my "watch guy" before receiving your post. As he reported to me, believing that the dial feet must have been removed, working very carefully with a small screw driver (with great skill) and starting at the location of each dial foot he was able to gently and carefully "worry" his way around the dial, back and forth, very carefully wedging the dial upward until each dial foot (discovered that they were still there) became gradually more loose until he was able to free the dial from the movement without any damage whatsoever to either the pillar plate or the dial. And...surprisingly, all three dial feet were intact and undamaged. All three dial foot screws were not screwed in to the dial feet.

In the post mortem of this event it appears that someone must have been unaware of the existence of the dial feet screws (???), did not know how to fix the dial to the movement and decided to put a dollop of glue on each dial foot to fix it in place on the pillar plate!! I am at a complete loss as to whether this is the case or not: only speculating. In any event, after removal of the dial from the movement, all the glue was able to be removed from both the pillar plate and the dial feet so the movement can be serviced and restored properly. So, in the end, the prospect of the dial being damaged in removal was avoided by some very good luck and skillful work of my "watch guy" and I am pleased with the outcome.

Thank you to all (Lindell, Buster, Kevin, Billy, Steven, and Peter) who offered advice and council to me. At this juncture I am in a good place.

Mahalo nui ka kou, Fred
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: June 12, 2016
IHC Member 1291
Picture of Buster Beck
posted
Glad it worked out for you !! There are more inept repairmen than good ones, no doubt ! Sounds like someone didn't have dial screws and opted to glue it down.

Crazy World we live in today.......

regards,
bb
 
Posts: 6376 | Location: Texas in the USA | Registered: July 27, 2009
IHC Member 1110
posted
Glad to hear Fred's dial came off OK, I imagine an Elgin Ball dial would be next to impossible to find.Not trying to derail this Elgin Ball post, but were all Elgin Ball watches cased in their own marked cases, or were they ever sold as movements only? Thanks!...Ted.
 
Posts: 1322 | Location: Lebanon, Connecticut USA | Registered: March 28, 2008
posted
Aloha Buster and Ted, thank you for your positive comments. As I said there was some luck and a very competent watch maker that made this possible. Ted, you are correct in that EB dials are very difficult to find. I must leave the case question to others... Please have a nice day, Mahalo, Fred
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: June 12, 2016
IHC Member 1555
posted
The large majority of 18s Ball-Elgin movements were sold in all sorts of cases by different case makers Ted to my knowledge, not just Ball Model marked cases.
 
Posts: 2260 | Location: Gladstone in Australia | Registered: January 14, 2011
Administrative Assistant
Picture of Dr. Debbie Irvine
posted

Fred,

Certainly glad to have a positive outcome!

Smile
 
Posts: 5206 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
IHC Member 1110
posted
Thanks Bila, I kind of figured that but didn't know.Take care, Ted.
 
Posts: 1322 | Location: Lebanon, Connecticut USA | Registered: March 28, 2008
IHC Member 376
Watchmaker
Picture of Samie L. Smith
posted
i wonder if whoever did this knew what he was doing,,He had in my opinion already changed a dial before this one ,he was able remove the hands and the old dial ,install this dial and put the hands back on....Could be the dial screws were missing and rather than find some he used glue or dial dots on the feet to hold the dial in place...The dial feet screws on the Ball Elgin are not easy to find just any old 18 size Elgin dial screws will not work on the Ball Elgin.

Fred, Glad you were able to get it corrected.
 
Posts: 3208 | Location: Monticello, Kentucky U.S.A. | Registered: June 24, 2004
posted
Aloha Samie, thank you very much for your post. When all is said and done I got really lucky with this dial. The dial is in perfect condition both the dial face and the dial feet. It is back together and running fine. We will never know what this individual was thinking when this was done. Mahalo, Fred
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: June 12, 2016
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Happy endings are beautiful!

And Fred, you have a reliable watchmaker who treated you right. It was also great to see our members offering good advice.

But avoiding that seller who refused to honor their guarantee of satisfaction Roll Eyes might be a good plan.

I too an glad it turned out well for you.

ABOUT CASES... The Ball-Elgins were sold beginning in 1904-1905 and the 18-size marked-as-Ball-Model cases were introduced beginning in 1906 from all the information we have been able to assemble. It is resonable to conclude that slow-selling Ball-Elgins such as the Hunter-Cased Models might have been sold a bit later and could therefore be found in "Ball-Model" cases. In my collection we have Ball-Elgin Hunter movement 11958075 in number 7875231 "Ball Model" Hunter case.

What is important to note is that Ball employees did finish, case and time all the 18-size Railroad Standard Watches at their Cleveland, Ohio "Ball Watch Company" facility. Ball advertising from the early 1900s forward was emphatic that they did not sell uncased movements, only "COMPLETE" watches. They were among the first to stress how important it is to properly fit, case and time Railroad Grade Movements with great precision, a practice that would eventually become the industry standard.

Be well my friends,

Lindell

Wink
 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
posted
Aloha Lindell, thank you very much for your comments and your post. Yes, it is wonderful to have the members offering their valuable insight and advice. Very rewarding to be sure. Here are pictures of the obverse and reverse of the dial. Mahalo nui, Fred

Dial Obverse
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: June 12, 2016
posted
Dial Reverse

Dial Reverse
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii in the USA | Registered: June 12, 2016
IHC Member 1555
posted
Interesting Lindell that all 18s Ball model movements were in fact factory cased, is this for Elgin models only or the others as well. When you refer to Factory casing are you talking about 18 size cases marked with "Ball Model" for all the manufacturing watch movement suppliers of 18 size movements to Ball?
 
Posts: 2260 | Location: Gladstone in Australia | Registered: January 14, 2011
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Hi Bila,

The situation with Ball was unique, they bought movements specially built to their specifications by leading watch companies. Those exclusive Ball movements were unlike other products from the originating companies in many ways, some of them odd and unexpected. Read what Samie Smith posted above in this topic... "The dial feet screws on the Ball Elgin are not easy to find just any old 18 size Elgin dial screws will not work on the Ball Elgin."

Ball Watch movements were branded to order as their exclusive product such as "Ball Watch Company Cleveland, Ohio" and then shipped from the originating maker over to Ball without hands, dial or case.

All the final adjustments and in some instances certain modifications were completed at the Ball Facility in Cleveland and then the movements were finished, cased and timed in-house. (This would be true with all of their 16 and 18-size American-Made Railroad Movements beginning in the 1890s and continuing at least until the introduction of the Ball-Hamilton 999B during 1943 production. We do not know if those may have been cased and timed at Hamilton.)

As I pointed out in response to Ted's question about whether Ball watches were available "movement only" they were not. Again... "All the Ball advertising was emphatic that they NEVER sold individual Railroad Grade Movements, they were sold only as "COMPLETE" watches. Webb C. Ball was among the first to stress how important it is to properly fit, case and time movements, particularly Railroad Grade Movements with great precision, a practice that would eventually become the industry standard."

Except for discontinued "Ball Queen" ladies watches and Commercial Standard movements offered to their Time Inspectors, no other company, no jeweler or any other entity could obtain Ball Railroad-Grade Watch movements, even Ball Approved Time Inspectors whose name would in some instances be on the dial and movement, even they were downstream in their Railroad Watch distribution, Ball was in complete control of his product, his dial designs were patented as were the hands, every marking and some exclusive features of the movements. Ball Watches were exclusively Ball Watch Company products and because of all this, even though his company did not make the basic movements, Ball was considered to be the manufacturer of Ball Watches.

When you enter into the realm of Ball Watches, leave nearly all you think you know about watches and watch companies behind and begin to learn anew. So much is different, both the man and his products are unlike anyone or anything else you are likely to encounter, they are a complicated and deeply fascinating part of this hobby.

Tread softly and carefully and beware, there is a lot of mis-information floating around out there!

Regards,

Lindell

Wink
 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC Member 1555
posted
Thanks for the info Lindell, just another question to rack your brain with.

Memory is not as good as it use to be, but somewhere I remember seeing a catalog pamphlet that shows 16s & 18s Ball watches for sale as movements only, maybe not in the US but in Canada. Is it possible some uncased movements made there way back to the US from Canada?
 
Posts: 2260 | Location: Gladstone in Australia | Registered: January 14, 2011
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Bila,

I very much doubt that is was from Ball but some supplier.

You may be thinking of movements from some other company or offered by a wholesaler, it is easy for recollections to become cloudy. A few months ago a well-known auction outfit described a Ball Watch they were selling in an inappropriate case and a false claim was made about the originality of that particular watch. There really is a lot of mis-information floating around.

But again... "All the Ball Watch Company, Cleveland, Ohio advertising, flyers and catalogs were emphatic that they NEVER sold uncased Railroad Grade Movements, only "COMPLETE" watches. They were among the first to stress how important it is to properly fit, case and time movements with great precision, a practice that would eventually become the industry standard."

ABOUT CANADA: For a time, during the 1920s for certain, Ball operated "BALCO" as a subsidiary in Canada (Larry Buchan and others may be able to explain more fully) and there as well, everything was very tightly controlled. During that period the Ball and other movements they sold or distributed were cased and timed in Canadian Content cases with "BALCO" markings.

I spend a great deal of time and effort on my posts and try hard to be complete and accurate as possible in order to avoid any confusion. The terms "factory cased" or "factory casing" were not used by me in reference to Ball Watches, but rather I explained their practices in considerable detail as best I could.

Hope this helps,

Lndell

Wink
 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC Member 1555
posted
Thanks Lindell, I am going to go back thru my old Watch document folders to see if I can find that Canadian info, if I do I will post it here.

The original documentation with regard to the Ball advertising for movements timed and cased dates from the 1902 -03 period at the earliest, I think!

This time frame does not cover early Ball watches (especially in 18 size) made before this period, is there any documentation that states that these early movements were timed and cased by Ball?
 
Posts: 2260 | Location: Gladstone in Australia | Registered: January 14, 2011
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Bila,

ACTUALLY 1893-94 ON BofLE STANDARD AND ORC STANDARD BALL-HOWARDS.


To cite an example, my Ball-Howard movemnt 307473 was shipped to Ball on Superior Road in Cleveland on May 1st of 1894 and there it was cased timed and adjusted in a 14K Gold Jeannot & Shiebler case made expressly for Webb C. Ball, Cleveland, Ohio.

We really should have handled your question in a separate topic, I should have asked you to start a separate topic to take up your question which has been asked and answered many, many times over many years.

Please go to this link and begin at the first topic about the Ball Howards.

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...s/a/frm/f/2121060351

There I explained in detail and here are some quotes...

POSTED SEPTEMBER 30TH OF 2015...

"...Ball was the first retailer to "case and time all movements prior to sale" as proven by the many surviving Advertisements stating that very important fact. We who are serious Ball Watch collectors collect those ads, many of which are reproduced in this forum and others reproduced in various periodicals, ***** Bulletins, here on IHC and other internet venues. We know as a basic fact that from 1865 forward Ball personnel cased and timed their Railroad Watches in-house and in accordance with their oft-stated policy. Exception for discontinued Ball-Queens (many of which went into Wristwatch cases) and "Commercial Standards" discounted to their authorized dealers, otherwise THEY DID NOT sell individual movements!

Ball constantly, at least from 1901 forward stressed this fact... "Many good watches are ruined as timekeepers by being forced into cheap, imperfect cases that do not fit properly. We have had some sad results in this direction, and so we avoid such dangers by sending out complete watches only" ...simply stated BALL SOLD COMPLETE WATCHES ONLY, NO INDIVIDUAL UN-CASED MOVEMENTS like other companies and Ball Watch Movements were NOT cased prior shipment to Ball, to the contrary, the movements were shipped to Ball where they were finished, the dials and hands applied, ALL POSITIONAL ADJUSTMENTS completed, then the movements were carefully CASED AND TIMED at Ball Watch Company in Cleveland, Ohio and ONLY at the Ball Watch Company facility.

THOSE ARE THE SIMPLE, PREVIOUSLY UNDISPUTED FACTS (UNTIL DISPUTED AT A SELLER"S WEBSITE THAT HAVE STOOD THE TEST OF TIME FOR WELL-OVER A HUNDRED YEARS!

I hope this matter is finally closed and put to rest.

Sincerely,

Lindell

Wink
 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC Member 2030
posted
Good stuff Lindell thanks. No harm in reminding members of the vast info here!
Mike
 
Posts: 1114 | Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia in the USA | Registered: February 08, 2015
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